Merkel Says Germans Fulfill Refugee Duty, Now Time for EU to Act - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14721418
No matter how deep the false narrative about Merkel having invited the refugees has become entrenched, it still remains false.

Merkel Says Germans Fulfill Refugee Duty, Now Time for EU to Act

September 24, 2016 — 4:14 PM BST

Chancellor Angela Merkel made it clear Saturday that Germans have done their duty to alleviate Europe’s refugee crisis and now the rest of the continent needs to do its share.
European Union countries have to accept refugees at a faster rate in order to alleviate the backlog of people stuck in the continent’s southeastern flank, Merkel said in Vienna after meeting with nine other heads of government. Their discussions focused on strengthening the EU’s border along the so-called Balkan route preferred by refugees from Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria.

“In view of the many refugees who are already with us, other EU countries will have to jump in,” Merkel said at a press briefing. While it’s “encouraging” other EU states have started to accept more refugees, she said the bloc’s “mechanism is too slow” for distributing people who’ve filed applications for asylum.

Refugees fleeing conflict and migrants seeking opportunity have strained Europe’s ability to cope in the past two years. The EU accepted 305,700 applications of asylum in the second quarter, pushing the total in the past 12 months to about 1.5 million. Germany took in more than 60 percent of the outsiders seeking help in the three months ended in June.

“You will never be able to close a border completely, but for Germany it’s been too much and I understand the concern,” Austrian Chancellor Christian Kern said at a separate press briefing. To alleviate pressure created by North African migrants, Kern wants to strike financial deals with Niger, Mali, Egypt and Senegal along the lines of the agreement the EU has with Turkey.

“We have a successful model with Turkey and this is the model on which we want to build,” Kern said. Under its agreement, Turkey has helped staunch the flow of refugees in return for economic aid and talks to extend visa privileges.

The influx of foreigners has triggered a backlash that risks tearing apart Europe’s political order and leaving the continent divided. The U.K. already voted to leave the 28-nation bloc partly because of concerns over immigration. Nationalist politicians promising to crack down on immigrants have won support in Austria and Germany. A cleft has split eastern EU members opposed to accepting any refugees and western nations in favor of following legal conventions.

Leaders at the Vienna talks, which included Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, also weighed ideas that would bring more resources to periphery countries unable to act. Merkel suggested EU personnel could be dispatched to Greece to help manage the refugee buildup. Kern said legislation may be drafted to let military forces assist in some cases.
We all understood that we need to control our borders and that it’s we who decide who comes to Europe and not the smugglers,” Kern said. “This may mean a backlog and therefore Greece needs our support.


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A xenophobic backlash and national retrenchment aren't going to solve the migrant crisis. What we need is a courageous vision for Europe to economically develop Africa and the ME in the long-term interest of both sides.
#14721419
Merkel has been trying to load off the excess numbers of her invites for a year now, with all the other EU members telling her to fuck off. It's not going to change now. And for the record, Merkel was the one who told her people that she's unable to secure German borders. For that alone she deserves to go to jail.

Last I heard, Greece has finally caved in and requested to get help securing their borders, and now they're outfitting Frontex to do exactly that. Oettinger has been on record for saying that closing the Balkan route was the right thing and that the Dublin and Schengen agreements have become obsolete due to the migrant crisis.

Merkel has lost her gamble. Her attempt to flood Europe with Middle Eastern primitives has failed. Now if she would just fuck off and not run a fourth time, she could even save some dignity :lol:
#14721427
No matter how deep the false narrative about Merkel having invited the refugees has become entrenched, it still remains false.


Well, sort of. The migrants were coming anyway but she made the situation worse by declaring 'refugees welcome'. The numbers then increased due to the additional pull factor. The numbers then decreased when she put pressure on the balkland nations to close the gates for her (thus letting her still look good) + turkish deals.

It made a mockery of the idea that 'nothing can be done' and that its all down to push factors. The numbers went up on the pictures of the dead boy on a beach + merkels big fat virtue signal then down with the stories of sex attacks at new year.

These migrants are not waves of people fleeing cities under siege. They are following routes paid for and organized by smugglers. Of course such routes change quickly and fluidly as the situation of the ground does. People seem to forget places like afghanstan have been at war for decades. They had a far more chaotic conflict in the 90's but why no refugees in europe? Quite simply and slightly ironic actually. They have more cash now and there are better organized smugglers.
#14721428
layman wrote:Well, sort of. The migrants were coming anyway but she made the situation worse by declaring 'refugees welcome'. The numbers then increased due to the additional pull factor. The numbers then decreased when she put pressure on the balkland nations to close the gates for her (thus letting her still look good) + turkish deals.

Bad start layman, your narrative is full of errors. Berlin was the last capital to keep on rejecting the closure of the Balkan route because it placed an unfair burden on Greece, while all other EU members (except Greece of course) wanted the Balkan route declared closed in last year's EU summit declaration. How are you going to understand history if you can't even remember last year's events correctly?

Merkel, together with the then Austrian president, decided to let the thousands of refugees piling up in Hungary pass into Germany last September. The refugees were already in Europe and both Greece and Italy had been sending them North for months. The refugees that arrived in the following months were already in Europe or on their way to Europe. For a Syrian family to organize such a journey can't be done overnight. For an Afghan to make the cumbersome journey via Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, etc., can take a full year.

The cause of refugees are the wars started by your country and the decision of the international community to cut aid to the refugee camps in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan.

The pull factor is the Geneva convention which guarantees the right to asylum. At least be honest and say you want the Geneva convention and the Charter of Human Rights be scraped.

The numbers went up on the pictures of the dead boy on a beach + merkels big fat virtue signal then down with the stories of sex attacks at new year.

The one dead boy on the beach story caused an uproar in the UK but had nothing to do with Merkel's decision.

People seem to forget places like afghanstan have been at war for decades. They had a far more chaotic conflict in the 90's but why no refugees in europe? Quite simply and slightly ironic actually. They have more cash now and there are better organized smugglers.

They come to Europe now because of the US-led invasion and because of their new Western overlords telling them that they are entitled to live a Western-style life. They are not stupid layman, they know that they will be killed by the Taliban who will takeover after Western troops leave because they cooperated with the occupiers. Since they can't have the Western style life that was promised to them in Afghanistan, they are now coming to Europe for the promised land.

The only thing that is wrong about it is that they should go to the US and the UK and not to continental Europe.
#14721432
The cause of refugees are the wars started by your country and the decision of the international community to cut aid to the refugee camps in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan.


There have been wars going on everywhere for decades and centuries but not this ..... Why?

The pull factor is the Geneva convention which guarantees the right to asylum. At least be honest and say you want the Geneva convention and the Charter of Human Rights be scraped.


Indeed because only europe is daft enough to follow it to the letter.Well, some do. Most places sign it and then ignore it. Its a market.

They come to Europe now because of the US-led invasion and because of their new Western overlords telling them that they are entitled to live a Western-style life.


Well there is some truth there. They do feel entitled to a western lifestyle it seems. They certainly want it and will invest in the opportunity. The ones that can afford it anyway.

They are not stupid layman, they know that they will be killed by the Taliban who will takeover after Western troops leave because they cooperated with the occupiers. Since they can't have the Western style life that was promised to them in Afghanistan, they are now coming to Europe for the promised land.


You need to accept that the vast majority are lying to increase their chances. Not every afghan 'worked with the west so is being targeted. Absurd claim. As I said, the place has been at war for decades and has been through much woese than this current situation.

The only thing that is wrong about it is that they should go to the US and the UK and not to continental Europe.


So you dont want them anymore?
#14721434
layman wrote:Indeed because only europe is daft enough to follow it to the letter.Well, some do. Most places sign it and then ignore it. Its a market.

There are about 65 million refugees today. Only a tiny minority has come to Europe. The vast majority of refugees is hosted by poor developing nations. Nearly 1/4 of the population in Lebanon consists of Syrian refugees, while the UK hasn't take much more than a thousand Syrian refugees last year.

Well there is some truth there. They do feel entitled to a western lifestyle it seems. They certainly want it and will invest in the opportunity.

The anti-asylum debate in Europe doesn't have any real-world solutions to the refugee crisis. If handled well, the migrant crisis can be an opportunity. Unfortunately, the racist bigots are hell-bent on preventing even a discussion of a real solution.

You need to accept that the vast majority are lying to increase their chances.

Such statements are entirely arbitrary. The fact is that about 50% or asylum application are granted asylum on investigation. That people present their own story in a positive light is only human, but nobody can deny that there a millions of genuine asylum seekers. Nobody suffers willingly the indignity of refugee camps or risks his life on the dangerous journey across land and sea.

So you dont want them anymore?

I want a fair burden sharing and I want countries that contributed to the wars to take their responsibility.
#14721435
Atlantis wrote:Bad start layman, your narrative is full of errors. Berlin was the last capital to keep on rejecting the closure of the Balkan route
That's right :lol:
because it placed an unfair burden on Greece
Greece could have closed their borders, gotten help from the EU, but preferred to just pass them on to the Northern countries because that was the easiest way and of course, let's not forget their threat to flood Germany with them as payback for austerity programs. Only when Macedonia closed the borders and Greece was forced to deal with the problem they had been content to force on their northern neighbours, did they agree to letting Frontex do the job - and it's coming into effect only this October. If Merkel had managed to spread her "refugees" all over Europe, that'd still wouldn't be happening!

The refugees that arrived in the following months were already in Europe or on their way to Europe. For a Syrian family to organize such a journey can't be done overnight. For an Afghan to make the cumbersome journey via Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, etc., can take a full year.
Nope. They were in Turkey , which is a) a safe third country (thus voiding all asylum claims in Europe from any of those "refugees"), and b) actually obliged to take them under Geneva, since it is a neighbouring state. And Turkey was content to let them go, because it knew they'd be a bargaining chip once the pressure of numbers got too great. And they were right, of course - Merkel preferred to let Turkey control the valve in order to avoid "nasty pictures" from the German border.

Oh, and lets not forget all those "refugees" from Morocco, where Germans go for holidays! Clearly, the war there must be devastating! And all the "refugees" from Africa, Somalis, etc., are sitting on the North African coast, ready for a boat tour over the Med. They have nothing to do with the war in Iraq, but still think they're entitled to enjoy the fruits of Western labour. Without contributing anything except raping women, selling drugs, and pickpocketing. Read the police reports FFS.

The cause of refugees are the wars started by your country and the decision of the international community to cut aid to the refugee camps in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan.
Wars are a continuing fact of life worldwide, but this flood of migrants into Europe is unprecedented. The wars may be the cause of refugees, but not the cause of their mass movement to Europe.

The pull factor is the Geneva convention which guarantees the right to asylum. At least be honest and say you want the Geneva convention and the Charter of Human Rights be scraped.
According to Geneva, neighbouring countries are obliged to take in refugees of war or civil war. Asylum is only granted in cases of political, ethnical or religious persecution - war is explicitely no reason to be entitled to being given asylum. So neither Geneva convention nor Asylum law justifies taking in 2 million primitives from MENA.
#14721439
Frontex is for some reason getting a pass for it being an incompetent pro-immigration ferry service for illegal immigrants, while withholding information and releasing spurious reports on the behest of its Eurocrat minders. And let's not forget that Mad Mullah Merkel is the one who opened the floodgates in the first place by shafting Greece for eight years now. Basically all of Merkel's gambits during the illegal immigration flood of 2015 fell through: deal with Turkey (ending up in a bitter feud), Merkel forcing the Balkan route open and threatening any EU member state who got in her way, the EU quota 'deal', the pan-European immigration highway solution, the ferry service in the Med.
#14721441
Frollein wrote:Merkel has lost her gamble. Her attempt to flood Europe with Middle Eastern primitives has failed. Now if she would just fuck off and not run a fourth time, she could even save some dignity :lol:


I feel sorry for Merkel. She did the morally right thing, which in turn, turns into a bad thing. I wouldn't go as far as saying she attempted to flood Europe with Middle Eastern primitives. She knew there was a refugee crisis and she pretty much said Germany would welcome them in. And when you have footage of cheering people at train stations, naturally more refugees are going to head towards Germany - especially when most other countries makes them unwelcome. I can't say I have visited Germany recently. I don't know what the overall opinion over there is. However Germany seems to be falling into the same pitfalls the UK did when new nations were entered into the EU. At first new EU nations people were welcome, but when you have the drain in public/social services/resources, soon public reaction become xenophobic. I hope Germany doesn't become split like the UK is today. But for the record Merkel is correct. More nations need to do more for refugees and it is unfair that Germany is taking the burden.
#14721442
They're not European refugees, nor were they refugees. They were mostly economic immigrants of the opportunist sort. They should have been taken in by the petro-Arab countries. There was no moral obligation, just vacuous virtue signalling and Third World entitlement issues.
#14721443
Atlantis wrote:There are about 65 million refugees today. Only a tiny minority has come to Europe. The vast majority of refugees is hosted by poor developing nations. Nearly 1/4 of the population in Lebanon consists of Syrian refugees, while the UK hasn't take much more than a thousand Syrian refugees last year.


The UK has one of the largest foreign aid budgets and spends hundreds of millions on refugee camps. I think our hands are clean on this issue.

I personally would be cutting foreign aid mind you. Disaster relief is all we ought to provide.
#14721447
The anti-asylum debate in Europe doesn't have any real-world solutions to the refugee crisis. If handled well, the migrant crisis can be an opportunity.


Finding a solution isnt europes problem. Keeping out the illegal migrants is. Interestingly, the EU seems more interested in my point of view that yours because far more effort is going into keeping them out than 'finding solutions' which is nonsense anyway.

Unfortunately, the racist bigots are hell-bent on preventing even a discussion of a real solution.


Name calling like that will just make you your argument fail more. You still dont get how counter productive this is for your own objectives. Please carry on :D

But for the record Merkel is correct. More nations need to do more for refugees and it is unfair that Germany is taking the burden.


This attitude is funny because May is right. If we really cared about proper solutions they should be helped in the countrys they are in. The refugee camps are underfunded and are the best place because they are close to their homes - the places they want to get back to - to rebuild their countrys right?.

People like Merkel though prefer to look good on TV and instead welcome the rich/middle class migrants who can afford to pay people smugglers and cut their way through border fences. On top of this they want to poach the smart ones with degrees apparantly. The ones that are needed back home ..... Lol they dont even want them to return but start new lives in the west. Actually, depending on what day it is they will sometimes return home or sometimes make new good citizens who will wipe our aging populations asses. This is not to mention those that did make it to germany and sweden are mostly unhappy and dont fit in. Culture gap is a real thing I am afaid. Values are not universal.

Still, it makes bleeding hearts feel good to do it this way. This is what matters to them. Feeling good - and more importanty looking good - rather than actually solving problems.
#14721555
You are obviously impervious to the facts. I don't believe you are incapable of understanding the facts, you just don't want to understand because it doesn't fit into your ideology. Thus, there is no point in discussing because you are determined to hold onto the false narrative no matter how often it is explained to you that it is false.

B0ycey wrote:However Germany seems to be falling into the same pitfalls the UK did when new nations were entered into the EU. At first new EU nations people were welcome, but when you have the drain in public/social services/resources, soon public reaction become xenophobic. I hope Germany doesn't become split like the UK is today. But for the record Merkel is correct. More nations need to do more for refugees and it is unfair that Germany is taking the burden.

Germany has a lot of experience with refugees. At least half the population is of migrant stock. The bombed out and impoverished rest Germany had to take in 14 million refugees after the war. The local authorities would come around look at the size of your apartment and decide how many refugees you had to take. There were millions more during the cold war who received asylum in Germany. During the Balkan wars, Germany again had to take in more than a million refugees from the Balkans. There were millions of guest worker from the South of Europe and from Turkey. And finally there were 18 million East Germans who had to be integrated. Compared to that, a million Syrians is nothing. At least they understand the market economy and want to work, if we would only let them. The real problem are the East Germans. The terrible heritage of the communist regime has still not healed.
#14721557
Atlantis your narrative is contradictory. If you support this mass migration of people as a good thing then you think Germany is multicultural. Hence how can you claim Germany has done it's duty when in your mind there supposed to be no more "Germans" but just people living in a state that is called "Germany".

:excited:

Lol half of Germany is of migrant stock. That is crazy man. Where you get your information from? Why you want Germany to be destroyed so much? What is wrong with you? Please tell me, what drives you to self destruction so much?
#14721585
Why you want Germany to be destroyed so much? What is wrong with you? Please tell me, what drives you to self destruction so much?

It's very simple, Albert - Atlantis is a product of post-War Allied brainwashing. He's of the '68er generation - too young to remember the War itself, but old enough to have a sense of collective guilt and responsibility for Nazi atrocities (helped along by some Allied brainw-, er, education). We did our work rather well, I think. 8)
#14721725
You are obviously impervious to the facts. I don't believe you are incapable of understanding the facts, you just don't want to understand because it doesn't fit into your ideology. Thus, there is no point in discussing because you are determined to hold onto the false narrative no matter how often it is explained to you that it is false.


It is interesting though. I think the exact same thing about you. As for 'facts', both of us mostly rely on sources. Its not like either of us are out there counting 'refugees' and interviewing them. You should at least try to be more open minded.

Compared to that, a million Syrians is nothing.


Talk was of a million a year but you changed your tune. This is fine and sensible but what is strange is that you wont even admit you changed your tune. You even denied the purpose of your 'we can do it' migrant thread you posted last year. :roll:
Last edited by layman on 27 Sep 2016 12:04, edited 2 times in total.
#14721742
You are obviously impervious to the facts. I don't believe you are incapable of understanding the facts, you just don't want to understand because it doesn't fit into your ideology. Thus, there is no point in discussing because you are determined to hold onto the false narrative no matter how often it is explained to you that it is false.

All 'facts' are ideological, Atlantis, in the sense that before the raw qualia of the world can become 'facts' they must first be interpreted in order to make sense of them. This problem exists even for the so-called 'hard sciences'. As Einstein put it, our theories tell us what we can observe. Until Einstein came up with the General Theory of Relativity, the bending of light by a gravitational field was literally unobservable, because our existing theories didn't allow for such a thing to be possible or even conceivable. All 'facts' are ideological by their very nature. This is why people with different ideologies literally see different 'facts'.
#14721753
layman wrote:Finding a solution isnt europes problem. Keeping out the illegal migrants is. Interestingly, the EU seems more interested in my point of view that yours because far more effort is going into keeping them out than 'finding solutions' which is nonsense anyway.


I do find it remarkable how people can quite easily shrug of a concern such as a refugee crisis when it doesn't affect them, however if the situation was reversed you can bet your bottom dollar they too would be a refugee looking for the best solution for their families. Don't get me wrong, I know what you are saying. A refugee should go to the first safe haven. And at first that is what happened. But Refugee camps were largely ignored and were impoverished. It wasn't until people started moving away from them into Europe did Merkel open up her boarders. More people came towards Germany because they were welcomed, and today Germany is asking for a fairer Refugee policy to keep xenophobic tendencies out.


This attitude is funny because May is right. If we really cared about proper solutions they should be helped in the countrys they are in. The refugee camps are underfunded and are the best place because they are close to their homes - the places they want to get back to - to rebuild their countrys right?.

I'm not saying Merkel was right to open up her boarders like she did. Today Germany is asking for help to spread refugees to reverse the affects of her decision. She said if she could go back in time she would do things differently. But what was she to do? Do like every other leader and banish them or give them refuge? She did the Morally right thing even if politically it was suicidal. However this is why the UN needs to change their refugee policy. Today bordering nations take all the burden when there is a conflict and island nations and continental stable regions like the UK and US are exempt from their moral duties. I agree that keeping refugees near their homelands is a good thing so they can return to build their homelands, but the Syrian conflict is not going to resolve itself anytime soon so this is mute on this occasion.

People like Merkel though prefer to look good on TV and instead welcome the rich/middle class migrants who can afford to pay people smugglers and cut their way through border fences. On top of this they want to poach the smart ones with degrees apparantly. The ones that are needed back home ..... Lol they dont even want them to return but start new lives in the west. Actually, depending on what day it is they will sometimes return home or sometimes make new good citizens who will wipe our aging populations asses. This is not to mention those that did make it to germany and sweden are mostly unhappy and dont fit in. Culture gap is a real thing I am afaid. Values are not universal.

Still, it makes bleeding hearts feel good to do it this way. This is what matters to them. Feeling good - and more importanty looking good - rather than actually solving problems.


There is an element of truth to say the rich/middle class migrants can afford to pay people smugglers to get into Germany and the poor remain in refugee camps. But I don't stand by you notion that she did anything to look good on television. She opened up her boarders because their was an influx of refugees coming into Europe. There is an argument to suggest she did this expecting other nations to follow suit or that she didn't anticipate the numbers coming in the volume they did. She was naïve. However she did have a strong public support at the time and has done the morally right thing. But I want to say one other thing to put things into perspective. If Merkel didn't let the million or so refugees into Germany, what state do you think the current refugee border camps would be in today? If refugees remained there like they should do, they would be in a worse state than they are today, and the west would largely ignore them.

Potemkin wrote:All 'facts' are ideological, Atlantis, in the sense that before the raw qualia of the world can become 'facts' they must first be interpreted in order to make sense of them.


Surely facts are not ideological? It is a fact you can't roll a seven on a dice. It is ideological to think you can if you roll enough times. Ideology is opinion based, and an opinion can't be right or wrong. They can only be an opinion. Facts are facts and are always correct.
#14721757
Surely facts are not ideological? It is a fact you can't roll a seven on a dice. It is ideological to think you can if you roll enough times. Ideology is opinion based, and an opinion can't be right or wrong. They can only be an opinion. Facts are facts and are always correct.

There's a philosophical problem with that assertion. That it is impossible to roll a seven on a single die is not a fact about the world but a logical deduction from the nature of a die. Logical deductions are always correct, by their nature. Actually, they are necessarily correct. 'Facts' about the world, however, are not necessarily always correct. This is because they are, in a certain sense, synthetic statements about the world rather than analytical statements.

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