[noir]

What social experiment?

[fokker]

What social experiment?

Irresponsible politics of inviting immigrants from countries with different culture and religion, given we saw where it leads in Bosnia and Kosovo not long ago.

[noir]

The German elite is Islamophile, they aren't afraid of Muslims. It's inherited in German geopolitical policy making ever since Imperial Germany days. Of course the people don't share this positive view. We don't know how it will developed. The Turkish minority is quite peaceful. These Muslims have huge respect for Germany, unlike the situation in France, so it may work.

[fokker]

The German elite is Islamophile, they don't afraid of Muslims. It's inherited in German geopolitical policy making ever since Imperial Germany days. Of course the people don't share this positive view. We don't know how it will developed. The Turkish minority is quite peaceful. These Muslims have huge respect for Germany, unlike the situation in France, so it may work.

Germany was Turkish ally in WW1, but these immigrants aren't Turkish. Turkish people are quite civilized in comparison to what is incoming mainly from Africa. Africa will be inexhaustible source of "new population". But Turks are also nationalist and probably will not assimilate.

[noir]

As long as they are peaceful, the assimilation thing is marginal.

[Donna]

Last year 36,000 Turks in Germany poured into the streets to support Erdogan during the coup attempt. It was a sea of red and white. That is beginning to look more like a nation-within-a-nation, even if Turks are traditionally peaceful and civil.

[Decky]

Germany deserves it. They allied with the Turks in the German crusade against European civilisation they started in 1914. Germans are more loyal to Ankara than to their own continent.

[Donna]

We get it Decky, you hate Europe.

[Political Interest]

Germany deserves it. They allied with the Turks in the German crusade against European civilisation they started in 1914. Germans are more loyal to Ankara than to their own continent.

Yes but England allied with the Turks against Russia. The Russians could have Constantinople by now but London and Disraeli insisted on protecting the Ottomans.

[noemon]

Yes but England allied with the Turks against Russia. The Russians could have Constantinople by now but London and Disraeli insisted on protecting the Ottomans.

And both Russia and Germany were allied with the Ottomans against England & Greece when Constantinople was eventually occupied. "Great Power" politics. Constantinople was such a big prize that no-one wanted his competitor to have it at any cost.

[Decky]

Indeed, the Crimean war was a huge error. We fought against Russians, the people who stood with us when we were fighting uncivilised barbarians (the French) and when the Russians had to fight a similar people to save the second Rome we turned on them.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

What's the problem to import them from Southern Europe? Spain, Italy have huge unemployment.

The German article says nothing at all about where the immigrants would come from. It's just about how the population, and the age balance, is expected to change over decades, and points out immigration could keep the population steady, and stop the drift to an old population.

This problem is often misunderstood. It is a dangerous process that can get out of hand easily even with small number of immigrants. Right now they may be only like 5%, but what matters is their age group - they are in their 20-30s where their numbers are much higher. They have much more children than Germans. What may look like a minor problem may be unstoppable already. In 20 years those 50 year+ old Germans may be in minority. Do they expect immigrants with different religion and culture will be willing to pay their pensions?

Those were population projections, so yes, they do take into account age and the number of children they have. That's why they show the proportion of Muslims growing; but they are such a small minority now that they will still be a definite minority many decades from now. And being a minority, even if they did suddenly become a unified political bloc, they wouldn't be able to get control of the government. Currently, atheists are willing to pay the pensions of Christians, and vice versa. Stop being so afraid of Muslims that you think they're all out to get you. They just have a slightly different myth about a god.

[ComradeTim]

Stop being so afraid of Muslims that you think they're all out to get you. They just have a slightly different myth about a god.

Strangely enough, so do Chinamen and Hindus, but you never see them blowing themselves up or ruining other people's fun.

[Rich]

Please stop lying about the exponential increase in the Muslim populations of European countries. We are on the express train to Armageddon.

France: the Muslim population of France has gone from less than 0.01% in 1900 to over 10% now. Were talking an increase of more than a thousand fold. A greater than 100,000% increase. Absolutely staggering. This an exponential increase. It is the cultural Marxists who are the hysterical liars. I'm talking plain, hard truth.

Or try Britain. 0.1% in 1939 to 4% in 2010. Again an exponential percentage increase. There may be a few cultural Marxists who are genuinely retarded, who honestly suffer from learning difficulties. But most cultural Marxists are not honest cretins, they do not suffer from a genuine inability to understand basic math. They are lying. They know Europe's Muslim populations are increasing at exponential rates.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

Please stop lying about the exponential increase in the Muslim populations of European countries. We are on the express train to Armageddon.

France: the Muslim population of France has gone from less than 0.01% in 1900 to over 10% now. Were talking an increase of more than a thousand fold. A greater than 100,000% increase. Absolutely staggering. This an exponential increase. It is the cultural Marxists who are the hysterical liars. I'm talking plain, hard truth.

Or try Britain. 0.1% in 1939 to 4% in 2010. Again an exponential percentage increase. There may be a few cultural Marxists who are genuinely retarded, who honestly suffer from learning difficulties. But most cultural Marxists are not honest cretins, they do not suffer from a genuine inability to understand basic math. They are lying. They know Europe's Muslim populations are increasing at exponential rates.

OK, some basic 'math' for you (I have been under the impression you were British, with all your concern for what happens in Britain, but apparently not):
An 'exponential rate' means 'an increase proportional to its current size' in mathematics. This means that it is impossible to determine if something is increasing 'exponentially' with just 2 data points. I could suggest that an increase from 0.1% in 1939 to 4% in 2010 is a steady increase of 3.9% in 71 years, or 0.55% per decade, and so it would take another 838 years at the current rate to be over 50%. This is not a decent model, but neither is just taking 2 figures 71 years (or more) apart and saying "look, it's exponential". It's even worse that you think people who don't abuse mathematical terms like you are "hysterical liars" or "genuinely retarded".

In reality, the growth of minorities in countries depends on age, birth rates and migration, and these are what demographers take into account. While a higher birth rate in a group can produce exponential growth (because the size a new generation depends on the size of the parents' generation), migration does not work that way - it varies, depending on global and local political factors.

Look for the results of actual projections from demographers who have taken the time to make a model and project it into the future. Just shouting "we are on the express train to Armageddon" without thinking about it really is hysterical.

[One Degree]

Good idea for those who base reality upon math. How long will it take to change European civilization? No question about whether it should be allowed at all, just how long? Oh well, it is not like European civilization has helped the world progress.

[snapdragon]

I knew this was anti Muslim hysteria.

What I'll never know is why.

[noemon]

I knew this was anti Muslim hysteria.

What I'll never know is why.

Racist hysteria is cultivated to detract from the economic issues, austerity, deregulation, lowering of taxes for the rich and so on. The masses are given the racist kool-aid and they are content when their social rights and benefits are being ripped apart. This particular one here has been manufactured to influence the upcoming German elections.

[Clangeddin]

I knew this was anti Muslim hysteria.

What I'll never know is why.

It could be a "fad" related to the terrorist attacks, for all we know. When I was a child, in the 90's, no one gave a toss about muslims, really.
Before I was born, there used to be hysteria about communists during the cold war (they eat children! ), and damn, those had nuclear ICBMs.
Maybe in 50 years from now we'll look back at this and laugh and how hysterical we were, while engaging in newfound hysteria against the cultists of Madonna.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

Good idea for those who base reality upon math. How long will it take to change European civilization? No question about whether it should be allowed at all, just how long? Oh well, it is not like European civilization has helped the world progress.

Maths won't tell you whether European civilization will change. But a mixture of heritages is more likely to help world progress than a monoculture - different ideas interact to produce new ones. A minority, even if of a significant size, won't threaten the flourishing of the majority.