[snapdragon]

This is news to me. Why would bring in the EU make it impossible to nationalise the railways? Have you got a link with him saying that?

Now you've put me on the spot. I'll try to find a link with either him or one of his team saying such a thing, but it's something to do with this:

http://www.leftfutures.org/2015/09/eu-m ... alisation/

[demima]

Neomon, I'm not entirely sure what anyone expected Corbyn, infact, any Labour leader to do other than respect the result of the referendum, while working to ensure workers rights, rights of EU citizens currently living in the UK, environmental rights etc are secured. 2/3 of Labour constituencies voted for leave. Should Labour go the same route as the Lib Dems, they would have lost the north for decades. While I voted remain myself, I was in Stoke before the recent bye-election to campaign for Labour, and had I grown up and lived in Stoke, I would most likely have voted to leave the EU as well. The problem of the Labour party is not the fault of Corbyn, that rot set in over 2 decades ago, and accelerated under Blair. During Blairs tenure as PM, everything seemed all glorious and 'Cool Britannia' was the theme. We had a housing bubble which was encouraged under Blair, the restructuring of our economy by moving more towards financial services rather than manufacturing and PFI deals which ensured the NHS would cost the tax payers billions more than it needed to. While the big cities prospered, the smaller cities like Stoke, Hartlepool etc were left behind and traditional Labour seats like Stoke had fuckers like Tristram Hunt, arguably the poshest Labour MP, parachuted in. This wasn't Corbyns doing, but rather the right wing shits in New Labour.

Regarding the Copeland loss, the PLP and their chums in the media did everything to ensure Labour struggled with retaining the seat. Jamie Reed, the Labour MP for Copeland was one of the biggest shits in parliament and did nothing but snipe and discredit his own party. He only stepped down because he knew he would have lost the Copeland seat at the next election (boundary changes) and that he had been losing votes in the seat steadly since his election. Labour made the case for the NHS and the closure of the maternity ward which the Tories will carry out, yet the people still voted for them. Partly I suspect is because Corbyn is anti nuclear (although this is irrelevant as the Tories have not confirmed they will upgrade/build a new plant), but mainly because of the misrepresentation of his views in the media. You cant pin this or the Brexit vote on Corbyn.

[noemon]

Blair won 3 consecutive elections, Corbyn lost an 80 year-long-held seat in Copeland. It's time to wake up, smell the coffee and stop blaming everything to conspiracy theory. The gap with the Tories is in the double digits and ever growing.

You can and should pin this on Corbyn as well as pin his utter lack of opposition to Brexit. The figure that 2/3 of Labour areas voted for Brexit is nonsensical and irrelevant, about 80% of English areas voted for Brexit that is 2/3 for everybody not just Labour, it does not mean that half of the population should be thrown under the bus because of a non-legally binding result based on luck that many progressive people did not turn up because they thought it was in the bag and shameless propaganda. If there is a repeat, there is no chance Brexit will win again, which means that there is actually a majority of people that are currently not being represented in politics. In terms of party politics, every party relies on its core voters and then the swing voters, Labour will never convince the swing Brexiteer that it will do a better Brexit than the Tories and the core Labour voter even if he voted Brexit will still vote for Labour, while the Tory & Lib-Dem Remainers are there for the taking. These are basic political math that when they are put on paper demonstrate an utter lack of political strategy which makes Labour look like a rather pathetically amateur party. And of course you pin that on the leadership, that is why leaders are there to assume responsibility, otherwise what is their point of existence?

It is evidently clear that Corbyn will not just never win an election but that he will cripple Labour, this is a reality and the steps from this point forward become self-evident.

[Decky]

Middle class people voted remain and the working class voted leave. You only have to look at the electoral map to see that. Middle class people want to be able to import cheaper domestic staff and thus want to remain. Working class people want full employment and thus voted to be free. It is that simple.

[ingliz]

the PLP ... did everything to ensure Labour struggled with retaining the seat.

“Sons of Thatcher”

When Margaret Thatcher was asked what she regarded as her greatest achievement, she is said to have replied: “New Labour”.

[SueDeNîmes]

Labour faces an existential crisis which won't go away with Corbyn. There is growing discontent - especially among millennials and the educated - with neoliberalism and parties of the supposed left which have bought into it. Recent Labour gov'ts have been to the right of post-war "golden age" Tory gov'ts. If you have to turn yourself into the Tories to win an election, you've lost anyway. Anything which halts the perpetual rightward drift of the centre ground cuts that loss.

Hence the pro-Corbyn democratic groundswell within the left. While that isn't, for now, enough to win a general election, another Blairite will lose their votes, and what remains probably won't be enough either. Meanwhile the Blairite, however conservative, will be called a loony lefty "tax bombshell" comrade etc by the Tory media, the centre will shift further right, the Tories will shift further right and probably win anyway.

Tory-lite is a losing position in the long run. "Uniting the party" now would mean some glib fudge which people would see through. Labour needs to retrench, explicitly reject neoliberalism and find a coherent narrative against it. That might take a few electoral cycles, during which the boomers will die off and the ranks of discontented millennials will grow and start voting. Corbyn is not the problem and might be part of the solution.

[demima]

Blair won 3 consecutive elections, Corbyn lost an 80 year-long-held seat in Copeland. It's time to wake up, smell the coffee and stop blaming everything to conspiracy theory. The gap with the Tories is in the double digits and ever growing.

It's not a conspiracy is it? When academic studies show that Corbyns views have been misrepresented in the media. Even a BBC study admitted fabricating things he has said.

You can and should pin this on Corbyn as well as pin his utter lack of opposition to Brexit.

Copeland voted overwhelmingly to leave, 62%, Stoke, 70%.

The figure that 2/3 of Labour areas voted for Brexit is nonsensical and irrelevant, about 80% of English areas voted for Brexit that is 2/3 for everybody not just Labour, it does not mean that half of the population should be thrown under the bus because of a non-legally binding result based on luck that many progressive people did not turn up because they thought it was in the bag and shameless propaganda.

Nonsense. You cant just say it was a "non-legally binding" result after the fact. Not when the referendum was, as per the Prime Ministers words, sold to the people as an in/out referendum, and that whatever the result, it would be final. Brexit is happening, and the sooner you accept that, the better. If you want to complain about the propaganda that was ran prior to the vote, I agree it was full of it. However, we would also be arguing about overturning results of past general elections, as they're also full of propaganda.

If there is a repeat, there is no chance Brexit will win again, which means that there is actually a majority of people that are currently not being represented in politics.

That's irrelevant, and I'm not even sure its true. Brexit will happen, accept it.

In terms of party politics, every party relies on its core voters and then the swing voters, Labour will never convince the swing Brexiteer that it will do a better Brexit than the Tories and the core Labour voter even if he voted Brexit will still vote for Labour, while the Tory & Lib-Dem Remainers are there for the taking.

This is what will happen in that scenario. Lets say Labour opposed the result of the referendum and requested another one. Called for another referendum or a general election. Labour wins the remain Tory & Lib Dems and wins the battle over Brexit. At the following election, those swing Tory and Lib Dems go back to their parties, Labour loses the north permanently and returns to parliament with 50 seats, mainly in London. Scotland gone, the North gone, it will then be called the London Labour Party.

It is evidently clear that Corbyn will not just never win an election but that he will cripple Labour, this is a reality and the steps from this point forward become self-evident.

Labour would not win an election under Corbyn or any Blairite the right could muster. They had their chance, twice and the second time only had Owen Smith and Angela Eagle to step up. You think that this is about winning the next election? No mate, it's about making sure that the Labour Party returns to its roots and actually starts representing working people in this country. Someone like Corbyn never had a chance to win any election, given the reaction in the media and his own party to his selection. However, it's what will happen after Corbyn.

[noemon]

It's not a conspiracy is it? When academic studies show that Corbyns views have been misrepresented in the media. Even a BBC study admitted fabricating things he has said.

Even if we agree on this, so what? Do you think if we say this enough, Labour and Corbyn will become relevant enough again?

Copeland voted overwhelmingly to leave, 62%

And Corbyn stroked the Brexiteers and he overwhelmingly lost where Labour won for 83 years. If he got his core votes plus the Bremain votes he would have won in Copeland.

Nonsense. You cant just say it was a "non-legally binding" result after the fact.

I can and will keep on saying it because it was stated quite clearly that it was non-legally binding both before and after the fact.

Not when the referendum was, as per the Prime Ministers words, sold to the people as an in/out referendum, and that whatever the result, it would be final. Brexit is happening, and the sooner you accept that, the better. If you want to complain about the propaganda that was ran prior to the vote, I agree it was full of it. However, we would also be arguing about overturning results of past general elections, as they're also full of propaganda.

Past elections were legally binding, the Brexit referendum is not. Bremain is the largest and most coherent political demographic in this country, that is a fact that can only be ignored for so long.

This is what will happen in that scenario. Lets say Labour opposed the result of the referendum and requested another one. Called for another referendum or a general election. Labour wins the remain Tory & Lib Dems and wins the battle over Brexit. At the following election, those swing Tory and Lib Dems go back to their parties, Labour loses the north permanently and returns to parliament with 50 seats, mainly in London. Scotland gone, the North gone, it will then be called the London Labour Party.

Why would swing voters go back to their previous swing parties? What you are describing is the future you are heading under Corbyn.

Labour would not win an election under Corbyn or any Blairite the right could muster. They had their chance, twice and the second time only had Owen Smith and Angela Eagle to step up. You think that this is about winning the next election? No mate, it's about making sure that the Labour Party returns to its roots and actually starts representing working people in this country. Someone like Corbyn never had a chance to win any election, given the reaction in the media and his own party to his selection. However, it's what will happen after Corbyn.

Even Unite's Secretetary said that ultimately the purpose of any party is to win the elections and change things from a position of power instead of becoming an irrelevant protest fringe party. That is Corbyn's Public Union Employees paymaster.

[Decky]

If you are so keen for Labour to win power as a red Tory party you really just need to join the real Tories. I don't get why you disagree with this. You have been arguing against a working class Labour and for a red Tory Labour for this whole thread. If you love Tory policies so much there is a party for that.

[noemon]

Look mate, I want Labour to win power so that they:

a) prevent the NHS from being destroyed
b) reduce VAT
c) increase the minimum wage
d) prevent Brexit

The reduction of VAT will offset the increased cost of worker wages and will provide an impetus for more investment, jobs and a higher standard of living which means more consumption. The saving of the NHS will increase overall health & happiness and the prevention of Brexit will put a stop to possible economic and political crises from developing. These are my personal priorities. The Tories have no will to satisfy any of my concerns, if the Lib-Dems rise up to the occasion I will return to them, but I will wait first until 2019, .ie one year before the election to see how the landscape has developed. As it stands, Labour is the only party that was willing to satisfy my priorities, Corbyn made a decision on Brexit and that pissed me off, but there is a chance this will change either through a leadership change or by convincing him otherwise. The majority of the Labour party agrees with me as well and absent Corbyn that would be the main priorities for it as well. Copeland certainly drilled these thoughts back into his brain and several Labour MP's have already made these statements. Back in 2015, Corbyn's Labour had caught up with the Tories and had even surpassed them by a minor 1% as well, there was positive momentum, now it's 12% behind them which is much worse than it looks because the Tories are injured themselves due to Brexit and austerity, if Labour cannot capitalise against them now when they are vulnerable, when will it do so? Sure the anti-Corbyn coup played its role and I said that myself as well but at the moment Corbyn is running the show and he needs to assume some responsibility as well.

[Decky]

You need to vote Lib Dem if you want a party that will keep us shackled to the EU. Labour relies on working class votes. It would be suicide for Labour to oppose brexit. You need to leave your southern middle class bubble some day and talk to working class people. Everyone is anti EU. I don't think it is possible for a southerner to understand how universal opposition to the EU is amongst Labour's core voters.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

This is actually very straightforward. By and large, the working class either does not care about or is outright opposed to progressivism/identity politics and the EU/globalisation. Labour has only two factions, one that is extremely progressive (Corbyn) and one that is extremely pro-EU (Blairites). Neither is particularly attractive.

It's quite ironic, but at this point the Tories are a better fit for most working class people. The only reason for Labour still polling above 20% is habit and a false sense of loyalty in regions that have for generations only voted for Labour, but even this tendency has been breaking down for a while now. Here's hoping that this trend will continue.

[Vanasalus]

Meh!

Labor party votes in Copeland under Blair and Blairites:
1997 - 58.2%
2001 - 51.8%
2005 - 50.5%
2010 - 46.0%
2015 - 42.3%

Labor party votes in Copeland under Jeremy Corbyn:
2017 - 37.3%

And somehow, all fault on Corbyn and his left wing ideology! Shame on him!

Who triggered this by-election. Jamie Reed, a bloody Blairite, former MP for Copeland. Of course he was conscious of the fact that he will likely lose his seat in next general election. Of course he knew that Copeland is the Brexit-capital of UK. Of course he knew that nuclear industry play an important role in region's economy. Of course, he knew that a by-election defeat will shake Corbyn's leadership.

He achieved his mission, abandoned the sinking ship, landed on a lucrative job in nuclear industry, added flame to anti-Corbynist cause.

And now they expect us to think Corbyn's leadership is failing.

I don't think so.

Because I am not that stupid.

[ingliz]

bloody Blairite[s]

John McDonnell: 'the soft coup is under way.'

We have to alert party members and supporters that the soft coup is under way. It’s planned, co-ordinated and fully resourced. It is being perpetrated by an alliance between elements in the Labour Party and the Murdoch media empire, both intent on destroying Jeremy Corbyn and all that he stands for.

The coup is not being waged up front in public but strictly behind the scenes. Having learned the lesson of the last coup attempt - that a direct attack on Jeremy and his policies will provoke a backlash from many party members - the coup perpetrators are this time round pursuing a covert strategy.

The aim of these covert coup plotters is to undermine the support Jeremy has secured among Labour Party members, and also importantly to undermine support from Labour voters. Undermining support for Jeremy from Labour voters is important to the plotters because their objective is to ensure Jeremy trails in the polls and can’t win elections. In this way they can destroy morale among party members and their confidence in him ...

The plotters are effective in distorting the media coverage because they have extensive contacts and allies in the media, many inherited from Mandelson’s days. The professional planning of interventions in which attacks to undermine Jeremy are framed evidences an exceptionally well resourced ‘dark arts’ operation of the old spin school. The coup plotters are willing to sacrifice the Party at elections just to topple Jeremy and prevent a socialist leading the Party. It is more important to them that they regain control of the Party than it is to win elections.

Peter Mandelson: I try to undermine Jeremy Corbyn 'every single day'.

Why do you want to just walk away and pass the title deeds of this great party over to someone like Jeremy Corbyn? I don’t want to, I resent it, and I work every single day in some small way to bring forward the end of his tenure in office.

Something, however small it may be – an email, a phone call or a meeting I convene.

[Thompson_NCL]

The Labour party membership is made up of nut jobs who have selected an unelectable leader. it is comical how badly they are doing, but because Corbyn has the support of the party membership (which represents a thin slice of actual Labour voters) he will cling on until he's forced from power or Labour collapse.

I'm not complaining though.

[Decky]

You might be when momentum seize power and Corbyn exiles the rich and makes the Democratic People's Republic of Britain into a worker's paradise.

[ingliz]

an unelectable leader

United we stand, divided we fall...

The tactics include daily and constant behind-the-scenes non-attributable briefings against Jeremy and his shadow cabinet every time he or his shadow ministers make a statement, intervene in parliament or launch a policy. The plotters use every opportunity to chip away at Jeremy’s standing to seek to demean him and undermine support for him in the Labour party and among Labour supporters.

[AFAIK]

I'd rather have the oppourtunity of voting for a left wing party in 15 years than a Tory Jr party today.

[Decky]

I'd rather have the oppourtunity of voting for a left wing party in 15 years than a Tory Jr party today.

Exactly. If Labour wins as Noeman's red Tory party then what is the point? There will be no change in policy so what difference would it make? Middle class people can already vote for the Tories or the Lib Dems, why do they need a third party? How is it reasonable that the posh people get three parties and the working class don't even get one?

[noemon]

If you want to keep the Tories in charge and let them dismantle everything, just go vote for them already cause what you pretend-Labourites are doing is all the same anyway. You want to stick your heads in the sand, cling to proven and evident failure while whining like little girls about the bad press and the resistance to that failure.