[noemon]

Seb Dance says colleagues asked him if he had 'brought your navy along'

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British MEPs are reportedly being mocked at the European Parliament over the controversy sparked by claims Britain might go to war with Spain over Gibraltar.

Labour's Seb Dance said he arrived in Strasbourg on Monday and was asked whether he had "brought your navy along".

Former Conservative leader Michael Howard caused uproar on Sunday when he suggested the UK could go to war with Spain, as it had done with Argentina over the Falklands, if it used the Brexit negotiations to assert sovereignty over the British territory. Spain's foreign minister reacted by telling the UK to calm down.

Mr Dance, an MEP for London, has said the mockery is spreading. He tweeted: "Greeted in Strasbourg with a 'oh, you not brought your navy along?' Tories out of control & make Brits look ridiculous. We deserve better. People are a little amazed this is a conversation that's even happening."

Number 10 played down Lord Howard's suggestion the UK might send a taskforce to The Rock—"it isn't going to happen", said a spokesman—but refused to condemn him.

The spokesman added: "All that Lord Howard was trying to establish was the resolve that we have to protect the rights of Gibraltar and its sovereignty.

"We've been very clear that we will support fully Gibraltar's right to its sovereignty."

Boris Johnson, the Foreign Secretary, said on Monday the territory's sovereignty "cannot conceivably change" unless consent is given by both Gibraltar and Britain.

Lord Howard had said: "Thirty-five years ago this week, another woman Prime Minister sent a taskforce halfway across the world to defend the freedom of another small group of British people against another Spanish-speaking country, and I’m absolutely certain that our current Prime Minister will show the same resolve in standing by the people of Gibraltar."

The comments were branded "hilarious" and "not very helpful" by the editor of Jane's Defence Weekly.

He told The Independent: "We are talking about two Nato allies. There are occasional differences between allies, but this would never be allowed to blow up into anything that would constitute open conflict.

"Nato has managed to stop Greece and Turkey engaging in open conflict for many decades, so I don’t think it would be a problem for them to stop the UK and Spain."

Independent

[Decky]

Ungrateful Spaniards. Britain never should have saved them from Napoleon, we should have let them continue to be slaves to the French forever. Is there even a word for gratitude in Spanish? I doubt it.

[Frollein]

Yes there is: gracias, amigos - and now fuck off of our rock!

[Political Interest]

It might be somewhat difficult going to war against another NATO member.

Why the UK wants to hold onto that piece of land is beyond me.

[Decky]

It would be easy. The Armada was smashed and that was back when Spain was less of a joke country. What they hell are they now? Just a place to go and get falling down drunk and throw up. Their coast is already a British colony.

[B0ycey]

It might be somewhat difficult going to war against another NATO member.

Why the UK wants to hold onto that piece of land is beyond me.

Because the residents want to remain British. Otherwise it would have gone back to Spain by now.

[Oxymoron]

[quote="noemon"][/quote]


Spain better shut its fucking leftist mouth shut, before the GB edumakate them. Fucking I know EU has a death wish, thank god England is the knight on white horse standing alone against the barbarian hordes

[babygang]

Gibraltar has been under British sovereignty for longer than it was under Spanish sovereignty. The people there clearly do not want to be a part of Spain's joke of country. Come to think of it, surely the left-wing Spanish parasites should cede Ceuta and Melilla to Morocco? Of course they won't dream of such a thing, since they are primarily motivated by a seething hatred of Britain.

[Seeker8]

Take the tax haven out of Gibraltar and what have you got?

There are two telling quotes in an article in the Guardian on Gibraltar this morning. One is this:

“On the gaming side, we’ve got all the big players; we’ve got 888, we’ve got bwin.party; we’ve got Ladbrokes, we’ve got William Hill,” says Christian Hernández, president of the Gibraltar Chamber of Commerce. “The reason they are here is because Gibraltar is a highly regulated gaming centre and we only want to attract bluechip business.”

The other perspective is:

“Frankly speaking it does not give me a second of happiness if the Spanish flag is on the rock,” Javier Nart, a Spanish liberal MEP, said on Monday. “What is important for Spain, and for me, is that this territory is not used as a fiscal base against Spain.”

The self delusion of the first quote is obvious. First, without the legal back up of British courts ultimately Gibraltar has no real capacity to regulate anything, especially when it is so obviously dependent upon not upsetting the gaming business. That business is not there for good regulation. It’s there precisely because there is low regulation, especially when it comes to tax.

And the second quote makes it appropriately clear that Spain deeply resents this.

In a nutshell the reality of discussion in Gibraltar is exposed. The truth is it probably does not matter enormously to Spain to get Gibraltar back. On the other hand having a location at its southern tip deliberately run as a tax haven with the intention of undermining its tax revenues must be deeply aggravating, and that’s a precisely fair summary of what the UK is permitting. Of course Spain us rightly upset about that. And the EU is for this reason right to support Spain.

So what’s the solution? Isn’t it obvious? It must be to take the tax haven out of Gibraltar, make it truly British, and leave it under British control, unless of course, joining Spain is then considered desirable by Gibraltarians. I cannot see another option that the UK can reasonably offer without making its own dependence on tax abuse in the post-Brexit world obvious. Unless, that is, independence were to be put in the table. But independence would have to really mean just that, without hidden defence, legal and other subsidies which are still provided at present. And I am quite sure Gibraltar can’t survive like that, and nor do I think Spain would accept this.

So the issue comes down to a straightforward question of why Spain should be expected to live with a hostile tax haven seeking to undermine its laws and taxes as its immediate neighbour and the answer is, quite reasonably, that this should not be happening. In which case the solution is to take the tax haven out if Gibraltar. At which point, I suggest, there won’t be much left to fight over. And at the same time the issue will have been made explicit.

Ponder this though: how many UK politicians would be brave enough to say this?

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/04/04/take-the-tax-haven-out-of-gibraltar-and-what-have-you-got/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+org%2FlWWh+%28Tax+Research+UK+2%29

Spain was forced to accept this while Britain was in the EU, but not any more.

What happens if Spain shuts its border with Gibraltar? Britain can't really complain since Brexit is about being able to control your own borders, right?

[Thompson_NCL]

It might be somewhat difficult going to war against another NATO member.

Why the UK wants to hold onto that piece of land is beyond me.

It occupies an extremely strategic location if nothing else.

If Spain closes the border, we close our borders to Spain. Simple.

Personally I am in favour of Britain joining the United Kingdom along with the rest of our overseas territories.

[Heisenberg]

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/04/04/take-the-tax-haven-out-of-gibraltar-and-what-have-you-got/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+org%2FlWWh+%28Tax+Research+UK+2%29

Spain was forced to accept this while Britain was in the EU, but not any more.

What happens if Spain shuts its border with Gibraltar? Britain can't really complain since Brexit is about being able to control your own borders, right?

Spain shut its border with Gibraltar for 15 years between 1969 and 1984. Funnily enough, all it did was make the Gibraltarians resent them more. And Spain's opposition to British control of Gibraltar has nothing whatsoever to do with it being a "tax haven". The Spanish have been whining about Gibraltar for centuries.

On another note, I must say it's amusing that fashionable armchair revolutionaries are always in favour of "self-determination" except when it concerns people who wish to be British. The Falklanders must be made Argentinine for their own good, and Gibraltarians should be made Spanish for their own good.

Here's an idea: Spain can have Gibraltar when Morocco can have Ceuta and Melilla.

[Seeker8]

When did i say i was against Gibraltarians self determination. And "armchair revolutionary", what the hell are you talking about. You always seem to argue against strawmen. Last time it was about Scots claiming they were colonized even though no one said it.

Sorry if i offended your British nationalist sensibilities by suggesting the Spanish might not like having a tax haven on their doorstep.

[Heisenberg]

When did i say i was against Gibraltarians self determination.

The assumption is quite plainly there in the article you quoted. It sides explicitly with Spain and the EU in demanding that Gibraltar not be allowed to run its affairs as it sees fit. You know, self-determination. And of course the article takes Spain's claims at face value while assuming the British position is underhanded. We can't possibly be backing Gibraltar because Gibraltarians want to be British - we must be backing it as a tax haven to be used "against Spain". And Spain "doesn't want Gibraltar back" even though it has wanted Gibraltar back for centuries.

And "armchair revolutionary", what the hell are you talking about.

Forgive me for using the term "armchair revolutionary" to describe the republican Scottish nationalist with the Fidel Castro avatar. What was I thinking.

You always seem to argue against strawmen. Last time it was about Scots claiming they were colonized even though no one said it.

Oh, please. You might not have explicitly stated it, but it's a common trope among Scottish nationalists and the tone of your posts always casts Scotland as a cringing victim of the evil English.

Sorry if i offended your British nationalist sensibilities by suggesting the Spanish might not like having a tax haven on their doorstep.

I'm no more a "British nationalist" than you are an "armchair revolutionary".

And as I said before, the "tax haven" thing is just a new tactic. France somehow manages to survive with Jersey and Guernsey nearby, and Gibraltar's status as a tax haven never seemed to be much of a problem until very, very recently. It has always been about Spanish national pride. That's fine, and I don't begrudge them the right to whinge, but let's not pretend it's about principled opposition to tax havens.

[Seeker8]

The assumption is quite plainly there in the article you quoted. It sides explicitly with Spain and the EU in demanding that Gibraltar not be allowed to run its affairs as it sees fit. You know, self-determination. And of course the article takes Spain's claims at face value while assuming the British position is underhanded. We can't possibly be backing Gibraltar because Gibraltarians want to be British - we must be backing it as a tax haven to be used "against Spain". And Spain "doesn't want Gibraltar back" even though it has wanted Gibraltar back for centuries.

You have a lot of trust in the British government. I'd like to hear from the Spanish side of the argument. But i am against tax havens, yes, fuck them. And the British government are a big promoter of them.

Forgive me for using the term "armchair revolutionary" to describe the republican Scottish nationalist with the Fidel Castro avatar. What was I thinking.

Oh i see it's because of the avatar. Well i think a revolution was justified in Cuba's case, does that make me a revolutionary? And not sure where you got the armchair part.

Oh, please. You might not have explicitly stated it, but it's a common trope among Scottish nationalists and the tone of your posts always casts Scotland as a cringing victim of the evil English.

Can you give some examples me doing that? Otherwise it seems it's you who's playing the victim of "everyone being nasty to the poor little British".

I'm no more a "British nationalist" than you are an "armchair revolutionary".

Well you always seem awfully defensive and trusting of the British government especially considering they're such scumbags.

And as I said before, the "tax haven" thing is just a new tactic. France somehow manages to survive with Jersey and Guernsey nearby, and Gibraltar's status as a tax haven never seemed to be much of a problem until very, very recently. It has always been about Spanish national pride. That's fine, and I don't begrudge them the right to whinge, but let's not pretend it's about principled opposition to tax havens.

You may be right about this, i don't know much about Gibraltar, but i thought it would be nice to have a different opinion on the thread than pro-british macho posturing. Wouldn't you agree?

[Heisenberg]

You have a lot of trust in the British government.

In fact, I have almost none. The British government has tried to get rid of Gibraltar before. Unfortunately for Blair, the people of Gibraltar inconveniently told him to piss off.

Oh i see it's because of the avatar. Well i think a revolution was justified in Cuba's case, does that make me a revolutionary? And not sure where you got the armchair part.

You don't have to read too much into it. Consider it gentle ribbing.

Well you always seem awfully defensive and trusting of the British government especially considering they're such scumbags.

I wouldn't say that. I think we have one of the most ridiculous governments in modern history. That doesn't mean that I am obliged to support every position that another power takes. The fact that Boris Johnson is foreign secretary, for example, does not mean that Gibraltar should be ceded to Spain, or that Spain is being "reasonable" when it does things like threaten to close the border.

You may be right about this, i don't know much about Gibraltar, but i thought it would be nice to have a different opinion on the thread than pro-british macho posturing. Wouldn't you agree?

I find pro-Spanish posturing just as tedious, to be honest. I also find the Spanish tactic of complaining about tax havens unconvincing, since their opposition to British control of Gibraltar has never been about their tax haven status until recently. If this makes me guilty of "pro-British macho posturing", then so be it.

[Decky]

It occupies an extremely strategic location if nothing else.

If Spain closes the border, we close our borders to Spain. Simple.

Personally I am in favour of Britain joining the United Kingdom along with the rest of our overseas territories.

Britain is already part of the UK.

As for Heisenberg's post. Self determination is for natives not occupiers. The Brits on the Falklands were there before any Argentinian (and indeed before Argentina existed) and thus have the right to self determination. Falklands=British

The Brits in Gibraltar are living on stolen land and thus their self determination means jack shit just like the Prods in Ulster or the Germans who "settled" in their conquered lands during the war.

Having said that Spain will cease to exist soon anyway. Give the Castilians Gibraltar back but liberate the Basque and the Catalans and the the Moroccans and the Portuguese (Galicia) from Madrid's empire.

[Heisenberg]

Gibraltarians are not "colonisers", and they certainly aren't British transplants. It's a weird mix of British, Spanish, Maltese, Italians, Portuguese and Jewish people who have lived there for hundreds of years.

Also, how is it stolen land? The Spanish ceded it to Britain in perpetuity. It's rude to ask for presents back.

[Decky]

Just like China ceded Hong Kong. It was "given" at the barrel of gun and anyone with any knowledge of the history of the British Empire knows it.

[Heisenberg]

So what? Does the fact that Poland as we now know it was created by the Treaty of Versailles - which was signed by the Germans because they lost a war - mean that it should be divided between Germany, Russia and Austria? Should Spain also be given back Belgium, Luxembourg, Sicily, Sardinia and the Duchy of Milan, all of which it ceded in the Peace of Utrecht?

History isn't quite as neat and straightforward as you might like it to be. As it stands, Gibraltar is a prosperous, stable and safe society that does not wish to become part of Spain - just as Ceuta and Melilla are prosperous, stable and safe cities that do not wish to become part of Morocco. The only people who will be "pleased" by returning them to their "rightful owners" will be people whose lives are wholly unaffected by the process.

[Ter]

Spain shut its border with Gibraltar for 15 years between 1969 and 1984. Funnily enough, all it did was make the Gibraltarians resent them more.

I was thinking on the same lines.
So how did Gibraltar survive those years of blockade? Are they independent for water supply? Food?

Because it looks as if Spain is showing their anger again:

Spain accused of causing Gibraltar traffic jams amid Brexit tensions
Gibraltar on Wednesday accused Spain of causing long traffic jams by tightening border controls, saying it was “clearly a response” to rising political tensions over the British territory.

As Gibraltar emerges as a sore point in Britain’s exit negotiations with the European Union, deputy chief minister Joseph Garcia complained of traffic tie-ups on Wednesday on the border with Spain.
“The latest action of Spain is obviously and clearly a response to the latest political climate,” Garcia told broadcaster GBC. “It is what they’ve always done but certainly it is totally and absolutely unacceptable.”

He added: “We have been told that the police officers deployed at the border, the Policía Nacional, are not the ones that are here normally. They don’t quite understand how they need to conduct the checks at the border.”

Police in the territory known as the Rock, which is home to 32,000 people, tweeted: “All those driving toward Spain should expect long delays.” Gibraltar’s government earlier posted on Twitter that vehicles faced two-hour lines to cross into Spain.

Neither Spain’s interior ministry nor the national police responded to AFP’s requests to confirm that border measures had been tightened.
About 10,000 people cross from Spain to Gibraltar to work every day, with the outcrop dependent on the small land border for trade and tourism.

“Spain has used traffic jams as a political weapon against Gibraltar since the day the border opened,” Garcia said. He noted that there were similar scenes at the frontier in 2013 when, in the midst of a diplomatic row, Madrid doubled its border controls until the European Commission stepped in to calm the situation.

Tensions soared last week when the European Union said Spain should have a veto on extending any trade deal to Gibraltar after Britain leaves the bloc.

London and Madrid have had a long and bitter dispute over Gibraltar, which has been a British overseas territory for more than 300 years.

Fearing that Madrid was seeking to take advantage of Brexit to impose its control over the enclave, Gibraltar reacted angrily to the EU move and London firmly expressed its support for the territory.

A Spanish warship also sailed into disputed waters off Gibraltar on Tuesday, raising tensions further, although such incidents are not uncommon.

The European Parliament on Wednesday overwhelmingly adopted tough “red lines” for negotiations over a Brexit deal, on which EU lawmakers will have the final say in two years’ time, but omitted any mention of the issue of Gibraltar.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... WEML6619I2