[Beren]

What is the logic of your post? "It's ours because I say so, and that comparable situation is totally not comparable, again because I say so." Yeah, forgive me for not accepting this stellar logic. I have a feeling if I said "Ceuta and Melilla are just enclave cities that clearly belong to Morocco", you'd find a way of pretending the situations are somehow completely different.

Its logic is based on geographical integrity I guess, and by that logic Ceuta and Melilla should belong to Morocco indeed. However, what your logic is based on? Gibraltar belongs to the UK because they could nuke Madrid? No, I think you'd rather remind me of the referendum they held after more than a hundred years of British imperialist rule.

You'd better keep your preconceptions about me to yourself and stop pretending you're so smart and such you schmuck.

[Heisenberg]

I'm not "pretending I'm so smart" - I'm simply pointing out a glaring double standard. My position is simple: If Britain should recognise Spanish sovereignty over Gibraltar, Spain and the European Union should acknowledge Moroccan sovereignty over Ceuta and Melilla. Since the latter isn't going to happen any time soon, any Spanish or EU moral posturing on this issue is just that, and I see no reason to take it seriously.

Of course, as it happens, I support Spain's claim on Ceuta and Melilla, because I know full well that the population has no desire to be under Moroccan rule.

[Rugoz]

Why is this even being debated.

Gibraltar has been British since the 18th century and Gibraltarians want to remain British.

[Beren]

Of course, as it happens, I support Spain's claim on Ceuta and Melilla, because I know full well that the population has no desire to be under Moroccan rule.

Of course they don't have the desire to be under Moroccan rule, but how does it matter? They shouldn't belong to Spain in the first place and such territories, islands, and rocks shouldn't have the right to choose. You actually support Spanish imperialism as you support British imperialism. I'm sure you also support Russian imperialism regarding Crimea as well as you support any kinds of imperialism as long as the population of the rock, island, peninsula, or territory in question has the desire to live under imperialist rule.

[Decky]

If Russia ruling Crimea is Russian Imperialism then France ruling Nice is French imperialism. You have no right to talk about double standards after saying that utter nonsense about Crimea.

[Rugoz]

Of course they don't have the desire to be under Moroccan rule, but how does it matter? They shouldn't belong to Spain in the first place and such territories, islands, and rocks shouldn't have the right to choose. You actually support Spanish imperialism as you support British imperialism. I'm sure you also support Russian imperialism regarding Crimea as well as you support any kinds of imperialism as long as the population of the rock, island, peninsula, or territory in question has the desire to live under imperialist rule.

Russia can make a better case for taking back Crimea than Spain can make for Gibraltar or Morocco for Ceuta/Melilla.

Not that I think Russia's behavior is acceptable.

[Sevillano]

Here's an idea: Spain can have Gibraltar when Morocco can have Ceuta and Melilla.

I think its a good idea. In fact the best solution for the future is Gibraltar like spanish territory and Ceuta and Melilla like a Morrocan territory. Sadly for the spanish who live in the north of Africa but nowadays these frontiers are very problematic for us. But above all, the idea is coherence in the borders of the south of Europe.

Maybe with an interesting offer. For example, every inhabitant in Gibraltar could retain his properties and English could be a co-official language in that territory. Spain now have experience having territories with two languages.

I am sure that with diplomacy we can find a solution. UK is an admirable country in many things and we can be friends for long time.

[Potemkin]

Why this obsession with contiguous territories on maps? By that 'logic', Alaska should belong to Canada. And where do you stop? After all, nation-states themselves originated as a patchwork quilt of regions and principalities which were unified mainly by physical force, dynastic marriage or outright theft. In that sense, the fact that Nice belongs to France is an example of French 'imperialism'. Should the Channel Island be 'returned' to France, despite the fact that at no point in history did they ever belong to the French nation-state? It's ahistorical nonsense, propagated by people who feel annoyed that the map of Europe looks 'untidy'.

[Beren]

By that 'logic', Alaska should belong to Canada. And where do you stop?

Oh my god, where would that lead to?

For your and Decky's information, by that logic Nice could belong to either France or Italy. Simple, isn't it?

Have you guys considered joining the National Bolshevik movement? There is a UK branch I believe.

[Potemkin]

Oh my god, where would that lead to?

Nowhere we want to be, Beren.

For your and Decky's information, by that logic Nice could belong to either France or Italy. Simple, isn't it?

France should return Nice to Italy, forthwith!

Have you guys considered joining the National Bolshevik movement? There is a UK branch I believe.

We're Stalinists; what do you expect, Beren?

[Beren]

Nowhere we want to be, Beren.

Sure, you'd lose a lot then.

[Potemkin]

Sure, you'd lose a lot then.

Or gain a lot, if we played our cards right. After all, if the Channel Islands 'rightfully' belong to France, then Normandy 'rightfully' belongs to England.

[Beren]

Or gain a lot, if we played our cards right. After all, if the Channel Islands 'rightfully' belong to France, then Normandy 'rightfully' belongs to England.

Nothing belongs to England rightfully except for a lot of salty water around it.

[Potemkin]

Nothing belongs to England rightfully except for a lot of salty water around it.

Tell me, Beren: what territory do you think 'rightfully' belongs to Hungary? Hmm...?

[mikema63]

Next You'll be demanding the US give California back to mexico.

[Beren]

Tell me, Beren: what territory do you think 'rightfully' belongs to Hungary? Hmm...?

Do you think you asked something hard to answer?

Next You'll be demanding the US give California back to mexico.

You don't understand the concept, or just didn't listen. It has more to do with geography than history. With Hungary as the only exception.

[mikema63]

Oh I'm paying attention, I just think that the idea of ceding territory on the grounds of border gore is silly enough to be comparable to the idea of giving mexico back the 6th largest economy in the world.

Actually now that I think of it, it would probably be more like giving mexico to California since they would probably control everything due to population size and wealth.

[Beren]

Oh I'm paying attention, I just think that the idea of ceding territory on the grounds of border gore is silly enough to be comparable to the idea of giving mexico back the 6th largest economy in the world.

Actually now that I think of it, it would probably be more like giving mexico to California since they would probably control everything due to population size and wealth.

So you just make up a silly idea to prove how silly another idea is.

[mikema63]

Would you prefer a mocking emoticon?

[Beren]

Would you prefer a mocking emoticon?

I wouldn't have misunderstood you then at least. Rugoz, for example, would only post a sentence like "Stupid idea" or "Utter bullshit."