[LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX]

Well, that's the debate we're having. I think it should be equal, but I don't subscribe to the notion that equality is more important than doing the right thing. If everybody is treated unfairly, that's not better than some people being treated fairly and some people not being treated fairly.

I'll give you an example of that principle. The war on drugs. We can both agree it's bad (hopefully). It's also unfairly applied. But it's not better to send more rich kids that smoke pot or do coke to jail. Instead we should not be sending poor people to jail for drugs.

I don't think anybody should receive leniency, except in cases where, under extrarodinary circumstances, they were forced to do the right thing but illegally.

This is clearly not one of those.

Well without context this sounds like a good principle, but the problem is that some laws and sentences are not just. A shotgun approach to law is never a good idea. No system is perfect, so we should always be open to reform.

[Pants-of-dog]

Well, that's the debate we're having. ....

As far as I can tell, no one is debating the merits of a more punitive system.

Your first post to Decky was in reply to Decky and mike commiserating over class privilege, and their belief that this person got away with stabbing someone else because she belonged to the same class as the judge.

Anyway, I think we can agree that this is the case and it is a bad thing, so there really is no debate.

[Decky]

This is the communist version of "fockin normies".

I don't think we can just throw her in jail just because other rich people get off from crimes. The thing is that everybody should be given the same opportunity to defend themselves and receive leniency. We shouldn't make the prison system more punitive for rich people but less punitive for poor people. Two wrongs don't make a right.

The rich should be rotting in Siberian work camps. That is not disproportionate or punitive, it is fair and just.

[LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX]

^Good thing you guys lost the war with ideas like that.

Your first post to Decky was in reply to Decky and mike commiserating over class privilege, and their belief that this person got away with stabbing someone else because she belonged to the same class as the judge.

Anyway, I think we can agree that this is the case and it is a bad thing, so there really is no debate.

Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still doing the right thing.

[Pants-of-dog]

Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still doing the right thing.

I am going to assume you mean that "making the justice system less punitive" is "the right thing" and "class privilege" is the wrong reason.

First of all, this is not making the system less punitive. Rich people have traditionally had lesser sentences or been more likely to be found innocent of crimes. In other words, it is perpetuating the same level of punishment.

Secondly, if we are doing this for reasons of class privilege, we are actually further cementing the marginalisation of poor people.

Now, how is perpetuating an unfair justice system doing "the right thing"?

[LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX]

The system should not be as punitive as it is. It doesn't make it better if we were to give the same unfair treatment to rich people. Rather, we should give poor people the same less punitive treatment. Do you disagree with that? Or do you think that fairness is more important than justice?

I'm also finding it hard to understand where the man's class privilege comes in... Does class privilege only apply to perpetrators and not victims?

[Pants-of-dog]

The system should not be as punitive as it is. It doesn't make it better if we were to give the same unfair treatment to rich people. Rather, we should give poor people the same less punitive treatment. Do you disagree with that? Or do you think that fairness is more important than justice?

Do you mean that prisons should be abolished?

I'm also finding it hard to understand where the man's class privilege comes in... Does class privilege only apply to perpetrators and not victims?

In this case, the class privilege was significant in that the judge identified wuth the defendant because both are rich white female professionals. The privilege of the victim was not significant.

[Wellsy]

http://www.inbrief.co.uk/offences/assault-gbh-abh/

Common assault carries a maximum penalty of six months in prison and/or a fine or community order. A prison sentence is generally reserved for cases where serious injury was caused, and higher culpability is present. The offender will have higher culpability where, for instance, he or she has previous convictions or there are aggravating factors, such as the attack being racially motivated, the assault was premediated, or the victim was vulnerable.

It seems in line with standards that she not be imprisoned since it lacked qualities like premeditation, permanent injury and she had no prior charge/convictions of a similar nature I think.

[mikema63]

From the OP

Judge said it would be 'too severe' to lock up Lavinia Woodward, 24, after she stabbed ex-boyfriend with a breadknife - despite having already faced two further assault charges

[LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX]

Do you mean that prisons should be abolished?

In general most offenses that carry prison terms should not in my opinion. The US has the highest rate of incarceration and some of the worst prisons in the world.

In this case, the class privilege was significant in that the judge identified wuth the defendant because both are rich white female professionals. The privilege of the victim was not significant.

The victim was a PhD student. So you're saying class privilege but apparently it didn't help the victim. To me you're just using that word privilege because you think it sounds smart.

[Pants-of-dog]

In general most offenses that carry prison terms should not in my opinion. The US has the highest rate of incarceration and some of the worst prisons in the world.

What sort of offenses deserve prison terms?

:?: The victim was a PhD student. So you're saying class privilege but apparently it didn't help the victim. To me you're just using that word privilege because you think it sounds smart.

You seem to think that class privilege has to always help every person in that class for it to exist. And that if the victim was also rich, his class privilege would also give him some sort of benefit when it came to sentencing. And that this sentencing benefit would then cancel out the attacker's privilege.

Is this what you think? The first assumption is obviously not true.

[Stormsmith]

Where is it written thar the girl is rich or what her social class Is? Am I missing something? I thought her "exceptionalism " was her intellect.

[Decky]

Where is it written thar the girl is rich or what her social class Is? Am I missing something? I thought her "exceptionalism " was her intellect.

She goes to Oxford. Remember Britain is more like India with its castes than it is like other modern western nation. If she is in Oxford then there is a 99% chance she will be mega posh.

[Stormsmith]

99% seems a tad high, to say nothing of pointing out that there's a difference between speaking reasonably well and actually being high classed enough to invoke a term like "class privilege ", but thank you for your explanation.

[Pants-of-dog]

She attended a school in Milan that cost £16000 a year, wears expensive clothes, flew to the Barbados after the court hearing, and had a cocaine habit.

These are not the things that poor people on scholarships do.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3580232/l ... -expelled/

[Stormsmith]

OK.

But I stand by my first claims. I would still rather she kicked coke and received councilling. Check her out mentally. But no record, and let her get on with getting her degree(s). Is it unfair? Depends on how badly the boyfriend was hurt.

If she was a regular kid, she could apply after the fact to have her criminal record erased. But if she has a record, she looses access to an exceptional education. That's not helping anyone. Cop her a break, and maybe she'll save lives.

[AFAIK]

The judge declined to give her a suspended sentence because that would block her current career path so it's up to her if she wants to get clean or not, there's no punitive actions hanging over her. I think we should change the laws or regulations that permanently bar someone from pursuing a career treating patients. Does this girl deserve a prison sentence, yes. Does she deserve to be permanently barred from practicing medicine, no.

[LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX]

What sort of offenses deserve prison terms?

Rape, kidnapping, child molestation, murder. Possibly also things like Ponzi schemes and extreme financial fraud. Anything to do with improper use of guns.

You seem to think that class privilege has to always help every person in that class for it to exist. And that if the victim was also rich, his class privilege would also give him some sort of benefit when it came to sentencing. And that this sentencing benefit would then cancel out the attacker's privilege.

Is this what you think? The first assumption is obviously not true.

No, I just wonder how class privilege applies here when both the victim and perp were of the same class. Personally I think the judge was probably true to what she said about not wanting the victim's future to be destroyed. You're the one that thinks she got away with it because of her class.

[Pants-of-dog]

Rape, kidnapping, child molestation, murder. Possibly also things like Ponzi schemes and extreme financial fraud. Anything to do with improper use of guns.

So hacking someone with a machete would be fine.

No, I just wonder how class privilege applies here when both the victim and perp were of the same class. Personally I think the judge was probably true to what she said about not wanting the victim's future to be destroyed. You're the one that thinks she got away with it because of her class.

I have no evidence that the victim was also from the same class, and I also explained why it did not matter in this case.

[fokker]

It looks like she will get away with the assault, but still will be expelled from university:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3580232/lavinia-woodward-oxford-university-student-stabbed-cambridge-boyfriend-christ-church-expelled/
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3612450/oxford-student-lavinia-woodward-stabbing-boyfriend-cocaine-expelled-university/
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3609990/lavinia-woodward-too-brainy-for-jail-naked-facebook-coke/

The Sun is reporting about her every day