If the EU suspends Poland...? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14826666
Is Poland still a liberal democracy — or is it reneging on its E.U. commitments to the rule of law?

That’s the question that was implied this week when the European Parliament debated Poland’s recent legal changes. This debate started Jan. 13, when the European Union (E.U.) announced that it would launch an unprecedented “preliminary assessment” of Poland’s rule of law.

The E.U.’s startling action was prompted when Poland’s newly elected conservative Law and Justice Party passed laws that put both its constitutional court and the Polish news media under closer control of the government, which critics say undermines democracy and free speech. There’s been a broad outcry about the new laws, with protests in many Polish cities over the past two weekends, and international objections everywhere from the European Broadcasting Union to the International Federation of Journalists.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mon ... 24169cebcb


The Law and Justice Party may not be a liberal democratic party welcomed by Brussels as it passed controversial laws reminiscent of the Soviet era. But Poland is very unlikely to be suspended unless it elects a neo-Nazi government and you cannot expect Eastern Europe to be fully democratic. Austria recently saw the possibility of getting suspended by the EU with Norbert Hofer, who lost to environmentalist Alexander Van der Bellen in Austria's presidential election.
#14826669
If they suspend Poland, it will only deepen the rift between Eastern and Western EU states, will tighten the bond between the Visegrad states, and tempt Austria to continue its efforts to hook up with them to recreate a pseudo-Habsburg. That's not something Merkel needs, so don't worry, they won't suspend Poland. They can't even agree on suspending admittance talks with fucking Turkey.
#14826731
ThirdTerm wrote:Austria recently saw the possibility of getting suspended by the EU with Norbert Hofer, who lost to environmentalist Alexander Van der Bellen in Austria's presidential election.


Eh...what? That was back in 2000 when Jörg Haider joined a coalition government. From what I remember that government never attempted anything akin to what the PiS tries in Poland.
#14827446
Frollein wrote:If they suspend Poland, it will only deepen the rift between Eastern and Western EU states, will tighten the bond between the Visegrad states, and tempt Austria to continue its efforts to hook up with them to recreate a pseudo-Habsburg. That's not something Merkel needs, so don't worry, they won't suspend Poland. They can't even agree on suspending admittance talks with fucking Turkey.


Can they do it if Hungary protects Poland? Maybe Poland would get more V4 countries on their side. Anyway Polands president is sane and vetoed the controversial law. They came to him to pressure him to take back the veto but he refused.

Austria was isolated politically for a very long time and it doesn't seem to want to cooperate with anyone politically. I think they should be admited to the V4. But only FPO seems to support this option and their historical arch enemy Hungary doesn't really want them in there.
#14827450
Austria wasn't politically isolated, where did you get that from? And it's not just the FPÖ, Kurz is aiming for the next chancelloship and he's a hardliner because that's what the population wants - how else would the FPÖ get over 30% in elections?
#14827525
Frollein wrote:If they suspend Poland, it will only deepen the rift between Eastern and Western EU states, will tighten the bond between the Visegrad states, and tempt Austria to continue its efforts to hook up with them to recreate a pseudo-Habsburg.

I'm sure the Czechs and the Slovaks would rather abandon the Visegrad Group if Poland or Hungary had such a serious conflict with Brussels. It's really a group of countries and not an alliance anyways. I also wonder whether which one of them would be interested in "recreating a pseudo-Habsburg". The original "Visegrad Group" was formed against the Habsburgs by the way.

Wikipedia wrote:The first Congress of Visegrád was a 1335 summit in Visegrád in which Czech king John I of Bohemia, Charles I of Hungary and Casimir III of Poland formed an anti-Habsburg alliance. The three leaders agreed to create new commercial routes to bypass the staple port Vienna and obtain easier access to other European markets.


fokker wrote:Can they do it if Hungary protects Poland? Maybe Poland would get more V4 countries on their side.

Hungary protects Poland? :?:

The Poles could only get Hungary on their side perhaps, which is not that much I guess. :hmm:

fokker wrote:I think they should be admited to the V4. But only FPO seems to support this option and their historical arch enemy Hungary doesn't really want them in there.

Austria just doesn't belong there, simple as that. As arch enemies Hungarians refer to Austrians as their brothers-in-law sometimes. :lol:
#14827563
Frollein wrote:Austria wasn't politically isolated, where did you get that from? And it's not just the FPÖ, Kurz is aiming for the next chancelloship and he's a hardliner because that's what the population wants - how else would the FPÖ get over 30% in elections?


Austria isn't part of NATO, it wasn't part of EU for a long time. Germany doesn't need Austria (despite ordinary Germans sometimes suggesting "wiedervereinigung :) ") and Austria doesn't want to beg Germany to push something through. It has been left alone for a long time so it got used to lone existence without much cooperation. If I was Austrian I would consider this situation totally unacceptable given the importance Austria played in the past.

I have seen opinion polls and since Kurz became OVP leader FPO is going down, now about 25%. But I'm not a fan of Kurz. I view him as desperate attempt of OVP to save themselves and present new figure while the party is the same. Like Kaczynski used Szydlo. Kaczynski would love to be the new Pilsudski but he is a joke. Orban seems to be most professional from these, makes no stupid mistakes. He is on good road to become new Horthy (in positive sense).

Beren wrote:I also wonder whether which one of them would be interested in "recreating a pseudo-Habsburg".


There are many small countries in central Europe that need to cooperate if they want any influence in the EU. This cooperation made sense historically and also makes sense now. It was interrupted in 20th century only due to catastropic events. Slovenia and Croatia will soon also understand this.

Beren wrote:Austria just doesn't belong there, simple as that. As arch enemies Hungarians refer to Austrians as their brothers-in-law sometimes. :lol:


The original reasons for V4s existence are no longer relevant. It's only relevant due to the EU. In my opinion due to EU it makes sense to expand it by further with countries - Austria, Slovenia, Croatia.

I would expect Hungary to understand reasons for cooperation most from all these countries as it learned the hard way that if it can't influence events, other countries will influence them not neccessarily in Hungary's favor as happened after WW1 when it got dissected.
#14827572
fokker wrote:The original reasons for V4s existence are no longer relevant. It's only relevant due to the EU. In my opinion due to EU it makes sense to expand it by further with countries - Austria, Slovenia, Croatia.

Why would they join up with the most recent Hungarian and Polish nonsense? Even the Czechs and the Slovaks won't do that. Hungary and Poland are jackass losers with no sense of progress and tempo. I wonder if they are aspiring to the roles of Beavis and Butthead of post-Brexit EU.
#14827576
Beren wrote:I'm sure the Czechs and the Slovaks would rather abandon the Visegrad Group if Poland or Hungary had such a serious conflict with Brussels.


I'm not so sure, given that the conflict is mainly about the acceptance of Afrab illegals, which the populations of those countries strongly resist - and may I remind you that Czechia introduced a very liberal gun law recently so that citizens can "protect themselves" (from the rapists that enrich my country)?

I also wonder whether which one of them would be interested in "recreating a pseudo-Habsburg". The original "Visegrad Group" was formed against the Habsburgs by the way.


It depends - if Austria plays nice, they might view it as advantageous, especially since Austria is also deepening its engagement in the Balkans. That's another reason Brussels won't push too hard: both Russia and Saudia Arabia are meddling heavily down there, they can't afford to piss off Austria too much ;) nobody else has the same influence there.
#14827582
Frollein wrote:I'm not so sure, given that the conflict is mainly about the acceptance of Afrab illegals

The conflict is mainly about the core values of the EU, and Poland and Hungary will stand alone with the pants down at the end of the conflict as usual.
#14827589
Beren wrote:The conflict is mainly about the core values of the EU, and Poland and Hungary will stand alone with the pants down at the end of the conflict as usual.

:roll: These core values are suicide and limp wrists, Liberal Globalist ideology is a disease Europe cannot afford any more.
#14827594
Oxymoron wrote::roll: These core values are suicide and limp wrists, Liberal Globalist ideology is a disease Europe cannot afford any more.

Now that the historic visit happened and the city got filled up with the right spirit the EU should be governed from Budapest. :lol:
#14827604
Beren wrote:The conflict is mainly about the core values of the EU, and Poland and Hungary will stand alone with the pants down at the end of the conflict as usual.


V4 countries do not consider immigrant sharing and their acceptance "core" EU values. Accepting them doesn't solve problems that caused immigration, only encourages more to come and while those home keep breeding. Some see this as core values, others as invasion.

This conflict may convince people to actually vote for nationalist/fascist MPs for EU parliament so EU enjoys them there. The EU will get the worst there is :lol:
#14827605
fokker wrote:V4 countries do not consider immigrant sharing and their acceptance "core" EU values.

The conflict seems to be about proper separation of different branches of government, which is a core value of the EU that neither Hungary nor Poland is willing to accept. They don't want to accept liberal democracy, to which they subscribed when joined the EU.
#14827619
They don't want to accept liberal democracy, to which they subscribed when joined the EU.

They're beginning to realise that they never should have got rid of that 'Communism' thing. ;)
#14827888
Potemkin wrote:They're beginning to realise that they never should have got rid of that 'Communism' thing. ;)

The Poles never loved that 'Communism' thing, it's hardly 'Communism' Kaczynski and his party want, whereas Hungarians try to reinstate their screwed-up history and make it all worse.
#14827909
Potemkin wrote:They're beginning to realise that they never should have got rid of that 'Communism' thing. ;)


Communism was a historical mistake. A monstrous crime.

Beren wrote:The Poles never loved that 'Communism' thing, it's hardly 'Communism' Kaczynski and his party want, whereas Hungarians try to reinstate their screwed-up history and make it all worse.


Kaczynski is strongly anti communist. Perhaps people have enough of parties that betray them immediately after elections and are looking for more long term stability just like it was in the past instead of new chaos every 4 years.
#14827935
Sure @fokker, maybe Hungarians just wish back the decades-long stability of Dualism, which was like a medieval kingdom compared to France and Britain, or even Germany. Only the Russian Empire was more backward and corrupt and not even a pseudo-democracy. The problem is that it's not what they subscribed to when they joined the EU.
#14827943
All the power brokers in Western countries use economic blackmail to get what they want, and then they claim everyone wants this. :?: The EU is no different. Do you really believe it's members joined for moral reasons?
:?:

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