[Kaiserschmarrn]

I'm just pointing out that I've rarely seen you in an actual debate where you address the points of your opponents and that you are repeating the same pattern in your responses to me in this threat.

You are right that this is not about Brexit, so I'll leave it at that.

[Beren]

I'm just pointing out that I've rarely seen you in an actual debate where you address the points of your opponents and that you are repeating the same pattern in your responses to me in this threat.

You are right that this is not about Brexit, so I'll leave it at that.

You're just pointing out your frustration because you're supposed to be a smart rational girl which you're actually not.

[Rugoz]

As a matter of fact it's hard to find any rational explanation for Brexit

About as hard as it is to find any rational explanation for staying.

[Beren]

About as hard as it is to find any rational explanation for staying.

I'm sure as many smart and rational people voted to leave as voted to remain, like they preferred and refused Trump equally in the US.

I know everybody (including myself) hates Blair, but he or John Major still would be the smartest choice for Britain actually.

But why not leave the British alone? Their EU-membership is history anyways and Brexit is a mere technicality now.

[Rugoz]

Whether a vote is rational depends on whether its consequences are predicted accurately. From what I can tell many Trump voters failed at that, because apart from immigration Trump turned out to be a bog-standard Republican. I could be wrong of course, maybe that's exactly what 49% of Americans wanted. This forum can give a wrong impression.

In the case of Brexit the hyperbole of the remain camp was legendary, at least in the German media. No way it has been the more rational side.

Their EU-membership is history anyways and Brexit is a mere technicality now.

Which is a rather silly thing to say because whether Brexit was a good decision or not depends largely on the post-Brexit agreements.

It is not worth the risk as long as the EU is a union where people in the member states have to be constantly vigilant about and fight mission creep. If that's the only way Europe can unite, the EU in its current form ought to be rejected outright.

Beren doesn't understand this position because he comes from a "failed state" inside the Union. For him EU rule is an improvement.

[Beren]

Which is a rather silly thing to say because whether Brexit was a good decision or not depends largely on the post-Brexit agreements.

Post-Brexit agreements are only technicalities, Britain's future and status are already decided basically.

For me the EU is something that helps Europe be more wealthy, peaceful, prosperous, influential, and a better place to live than ever. I'm not happy that Britain leaves, because it would be better for European peace and stability if they joined Germany and France wholeheartedly, but if they are so sceptic about the whole thing, then it's better if they leave, and there is nothing more to do about it unfortunately.

Trump and Brexit may seem so different to you only because of your special Swiss nationalist point of view, but they are the same basically. If you had to name the British Trump, who would that be?

Exactly.

[Rugoz]

For me the EU is something that helps Europe be more wealthy, peaceful, prosperous, influential, and a better place to live than ever.

Collides with existing reality.

Trump and Brexit may seem so different to you only because of your special Swiss nationalist point of view, but they are the same basically. If you had to name the British Trump, who would that be?

Maybe that's why I understand it better than you do. Brexit could have happened 20 years ago, it has nothing to do with Trump:

[Beren]

Brexit could have happened 20 years ago, it has nothing to do with Trump:

But it didn't. It happened the same time as Trump did. Oh why, oh why?

[Rugoz]

But it didn't. It happened the same time as Trump did. Oh why, oh why?

Cameron miscalculated, though I won't deny the Tories might have been under more pressure from an anti-EU party (UKIP) than before. Fact remains, Brexit could have found a majority many times in the past decades. Making superficial connections to American politics is just lazy. Lazyness sums up your attitude in this thread quite well by the way.

[Beren]

Making superficial connections to American politics is just lazy. Lazyness sums up your attitude in this thread quite well by the way.

What does denying obvious connections between British and American politics sum up? Sure, I must be lazy to see the obvious, whereas good hardworking Swiss people like you just can't see it.

[Rugoz]

QED I guess.

[Beren]

Oh I see, so it must be a coincidence until scientifically proven otherwise? You know what? You got me, I'm lazy indeed, so let it be a weird conspiracy theory for you.

[Rugoz]

Oh I see, so it must be a coincidence until scientifically proven otherwise?

First you have clarify what exactly the connection is, then you have to find stats to support it. You can do it Beren.

[quetzalcoatl]

“concrete steps in around 10 areas”

The irony of this quote sums up the Macron phenomenon. "We believe strongly and forcefully in, you know, stuff."

The "stuff" standing in the way of deeper eurozone integration is straightforward. There is no political integration to match the monetary integration. And most deeply wounding of all, there is no fiscal union. So instead of a cooperative federation, you have a zero-sum competition amounting to little more than a Hobbsean war of all against all. The euro is effectively an external currency to the individual eurocurrency members - that is, they are not in a position to issue debt in a sovereign currency. (For comparison, Mississippi receives half of its budget from various federal sources. Try to imagine the US government forcing Mississippi to borrow that shortfall, and the crushing effect this would have on its already poor citizens.) A system structurally designed to pit members against one another won't lead to integration, without some fundamental changes.

[Beren]

First you have clarify what exactly the connection is, then you have to find stats to support it. You can do it Beren.

What stats? Trump and Farage don't have the same hair, who needs stats to see that?

[fokker]

Beren doesn't understand this position because he comes from a "failed state" inside the Union. For him EU rule is an improvement.

EU enthusiasts are frequently people who believe in promises. EU is a promise of prosperity, stability so they support it. Wealthy and stable countries are at the helm, what could possibly go wrong with it? That's how they think.

Now when two speed EU is being considered with certain "core" countries (France, Germany) integrating further, there are countries and people on the outskirts who want to be vehemetly in it. Nobody knows conditions which will apply in the "core" and what could be long term effects of these, these people already made up their mind. Wealthy and stable countries are in the "core", what could possibly go wrong with it?

I will even speculate that it is majority of population that thinks in such simplistic terms. In the west people are probably more skeptic as there is little benefit from the EU while the east still gets EU benefits which outweighs the political disadvantages for the population.

I'm very skeptical of any promises, be it from EU, or any product/service I buy. I do not consider promises when making decisions as I take it something like a lottery that will make me happy if fulfilled. Promises are to be broken, those on paper included.

[Beren]

The actual intent of this thread was to demonstrate the viability of European integration. Although it was like being under siege for the EU in the one last year we've been through, the project is still alive and well, and keeps going. However, Brexiteers can't do anything else than discussing Brexit and entertaining us with their absurd sense of humour.

Also:

[One Degree]

The EU is a troglodyte. It is attempting unification during a period of history when autonomy is the preference.
It makes sense to want to match the US and China as a third power, but the time has passed for this to work. Attempting to reestablish empire when it is out of favor can only be done through the most Machiavellian means.

[Beren]

I'm glad you joined @One Degree. It makes the thread complete.

[One Degree]

I'm glad you joined @One Degree. It makes the thread complete.

Thanks. I try my best to go along with the crowd.