[Buzz62]

Errr...I think you guys are forgetting something and someone.

[Potemkin]

These people really have no shame. First it's all about win-win and how everybody benefits. Then it become dependence, colonisation and inevitability.

It is the logic of international capital, Kaiserschmarrn. The Western European nations are 'bourgeois nations', and the Eastern European nations are 'proletarian nations', to use Mussolini's phrase. Guess who comes out on top. Lol.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

^ I'll soon be talking about the proletarian revolution!

[fokker]

These people really have no shame. First it's all about win-win and how everybody benefits. Then it become dependence, colonisation and inevitability. No country can be open to foreign investors unless it is in the EU and subscribes to ever more integration, and once colonised there is no way back. Obviously, Eastern Europeans will never manage to invest in their own countries, they'll always be some kind of appendix of Western Europe. Just so you guys know your place.

Fico and Babis are very different to Kaczynski and Orban. Its a very artificial collage.

These goals are known to people. Slowly but surely the division between left and right is becoming less important and instead personal character and national interests grow in importance. We will see how "Movement of Freedom and Direct Democracy" of Tomio Okamura does in next Czech elections. He is of mixed Czech-Japanese origin, but Czech nationalist. Elections will be held in 1 month. Neighbouring Slovakia is even further, there is a fascist party "Kotleba – People's Party Our Slovakia" already in parliament as it scored surprising 8% and is likely to grow further.

We will most likely see non standard parties gaining in importance even though there is no problem with immigrants yet in these countries. You would think things would change in west but instead east seems more flexible. Orban will be the role model for neighbours as he has been quite successful at dodging EU punishment. You could have FPO government in Austria and nothing would happen this time as Kaczynski and Orban would defend them.

[Rugoz]

Orban will be the role model for neighbours as he has been quite successful at dodging EU punishment.

Because the EU is utterly dysfunctional. The refugee distribution scheme for example, regardless of one thinks of it, it's the law and if Hungary doesn't follow it should be expelled, simple as that.

[Ned Lud]

The great point to bear in mind about the EU is that it has twenty-seven members and an island run by noodles that is trying to leave while keeping the advantages of staying in. Without a much more centralised constitution it will take incredible time to come to decisions, but only clowns want to leave it because to do so would involve total economic disaster.

[Decky]

The great point to bear in mind about the EU is that it has twenty-seven members and an island run by noodles that is trying to leave while keeping the advantages of staying in. Without a much more centralised constitution it will take incredible time to come to decisions, but only clowns want to leave it because to do so would involve total economic disaster.

You are no socialist Lud, the EU is centre right capitalist behemoth and all true workers want to be free of it. The only good european union was the Warsaw Pact and sadly it aint here no more.

[Ned Lud]

You are no socialist Lud, the EU is centre right capitalist behemoth and all true workers want to be free of it. The only good european union was the Warsaw Pact and sadly it aint here no more.

You believe that we shall have shall have a workers' democracy under Mrs May and Boris, or be able to remedy the poverty created by leaving the EU under the Labour Party? We are talking about transitory politics here.

[Buzz62]

Boys. Errr...boys?
Neither the Capitalist nor the Soviet worlds had much to do with "working people".
Capitalism is...what it is, and the Soviet world was never about "the worker", but about how much of the state's power and wealth can be centralized and funneled to the pockets of the Soviet leaders.
I have to admit some satisfaction at watching the old "commies" in Czech, wrestle with the idea that nobody feared them anymore. But I'd really enjoy a chance to watch the same in the Capitalist world as well.

Do you guys fully comprehend what's happening in Central Europe?
The history of the EU, from the perspective of the Central European countries?
These people are sandwiched between an entity they have an historical reason to fear and mistrust, and an entity that they've quickly learned to fear and mistrust. They sit in the middle, watching both sides posture and fling back-handed insults at each other, like a couple of bullies squaring off in the playground.

But today...the EU is demanding that Central Europe willingly take in refugees who:
A. Show up and as quickly as possible, move to Germany.
B. Are abrasive...to say the least.

Now which direction do either of you figure the populace is more comfortable with, today?

[Kaiserschmarrn]

You believe that we shall have shall have a workers' democracy under Mrs May and Boris, or be able to remedy the poverty created by leaving the EU under the Labour Party? We are talking about transitory politics here.

You are talking about abdicating responsibility for your own country. It's the most pathetic argument in favour of the EU of them all.

[Decky]

You believe that we shall have shall have a workers' democracy under Mrs May and Boris, or be able to remedy the poverty created by leaving the EU under the Labour Party? We are talking about transitory politics here.

May won't be in power for ever, if we are free of the EU today it means that future socialist governments will have freedom of action if and when they come about, if on the otherhand we stay a member of the EU a future socialist government in Westminster won't mean shit as any decisions of importance will be take by the centre right millionares in Brussels.

[Beren]

Sure, Brexit will turn out to be a good thing when Britain becomes the next USSR. Good luck with that!

[Ned Lud]

May won't be in power for ever, if we are free of the EU today it means that future socialist governments will have freedom of action if and when they come about, if on the otherhand we stay a member of the EU a future socialist government in Westminster won't mean shit as any decisions of importance will be take by the centre right millionares in Brussels.

Words are not realities, and what I am interested is actual democratic control by the actual working class, here and everywhere, and I tend to judge by the likely jumping-off points for achieving that. Do you believe that working people had control of the USSR under Stalin? I don't.

[Rugoz]

When the GDP figures came out in 2016 people used the term "leprechaun economy" to describe it.

GNP is much better but still influenced by some of the same issues. See here if you are interested.

Here's a good article:

https://www.oecd.org/std/na/Irish-GDP-u ... 5-OECD.pdf

Suggesting a more useful measure would be net national income NNI (GNI net of depreciation) or disposable household income.
https://data.oecd.org/chart/4Wmk
https://data.oecd.org/natincome/net-national-income.htm

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Thanks, @Rugoz. That does look much more believable and closer to reality. I also had a look at disposable household income where the Czech Republic and Ireland aren't too different since 2004 (although Ireland does somewhat better). As a side note, Greece and to a lesser extent Italy is a disaster and Austria actually doesn't look particularly good either on that measure.

[Rugoz]

Thanks, @Rugoz. That does look much more believable and closer to reality. I also had a look at disposable household income where the Czech Republic and Ireland aren't too different since 2004 (although Ireland does somewhat better). As a side note, Greece and to a lesser extent Italy is a disaster and Austria actually doesn't look particularly good either on that measure.

Frankly I still don't really understand it respectively why it's not possible to correct for it. Since GDP is such an important variable and the best measure of domestic production, I find this rather problematic.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Frankly I still don't really understand it respectively why it's not possible to correct for it. Since GDP is such an important variable and the best measure of domestic production, I find this rather problematic.

I agree. The growth that Ireland recorded must be missing somewhere else and it would be interesting to know where it actually occurred in reality.

[Decky]

Words are not realities, and what I am interested is actual democratic control by the actual working class, here and everywhere, and I tend to judge by the likely jumping-off points for achieving that. Do you believe that working people had control of the USSR under Stalin? I don't.

I had high hopes for you when you joined but now I see you are just a Lib Dem pretending to be a socialist. I wouldn't be supprised if you worked in an office and shoped at Marks and Spencers. You are probably wearing a tie as you write this and drinking coffee not tea.

Stalin saved the entire world from fascism and all workers everywhere owe him a debt that can never be paid off.

[fokker]

Not long ago Andrej Babis clearly said he doesn't want even a single refugee in Czech republic.

https://blisty.cz/art/87506.html

According to the last opinion poll his party is poised to win elections in one month with 30%, socialists being 2nd with about 13%. The only openly pro european party TOP09 will most likely not make it.

[Ned Lud]

I had high hopes for you when you joined but now I see you are just a Lib Dem pretending to be a socialist. I wouldn't be supprised if you worked in an office and shoped at Marks and Spencers. You are probably wearing a tie as you write this and drinking coffee not tea.

Stalin saved the entire world from fascism and all workers everywhere owe him a debt that can never be paid off.

The Soviet people saved the world from Fascism. For what it's worth , I haven't worn a tie for many years and I drink beer. My great-grandfather was the last Liberal in our family, and he still went on the hunger march from the Rhondda. You'll be wanting to study my accent soon. The last time worked in an election one of the comrades said, 'Ew've got as funny old twang to ew then!' Make of it what you will!