How Putin could yet save Britain from Brexit - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14858744
Mueller investigating the Trump cronies may well turn up so much dirt that the Brexitters come tumbling down as collateral.

I never understood Aron Banks' eagerness to bankroll the Brexit campaign. The Brits seem so tolerant when it comes to shady business men interfering in the political process from behind the scenes.

How Putin could yet save Britain from Brexit

On a side note, it emerged today that Mercer, who had a hand in both the Trump and Brexit campaign sold his hedge-fund shares to Breitbart.
#14858925
Putin is also responsible for the Catalonia mess and I read yesterday that he will be responsible for Scottish independence if it ever happens.

The west has a lot to learn from Putin who seemingly with very little effort installed his preferred president in the US, brought about Brexit, a severe crisis in Spain and a surge in populism all over Europe. He's a force of nature.
#14858941
I think the problem goes back to the post Cold War era. The West decided to engage in triumphalism rather than consolidate a new relationship with Russia. Eventually Russia gave up on peace and decided relations with the West are based on zero sum game thinking. As a result Putin has been working on derailing Western interests for quite some time.

Here’s yet another article from Mike. A useful insight into the Russian perspective but as usual Mike can’t resist to add his bourgeois liberal Western status quo views at the end of the article.

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/a-common-european-home/
#14859044
foxdemon wrote:I think the problem goes back to the post Cold War era. The West decided to engage in triumphalism rather than consolidate a new relationship with Russia. Eventually Russia gave up on peace and decided relations with the West are based on zero sum game thinking. As a result Putin has been working on derailing Western interests for quite some time.


On an emotional level, I can understand that Putin is frustrated or feels betrayed by the West. But emotions are bad drivers for policy decisions. Even in his attempt to influence foreign governments, he is just copying Western regime change tactics. And he isn't very smart about it, as is shown by the results. Well, US attempts at regime change are even more catastrophic. They are both prisoners of the logic of empire and can't think outside the box.
#14859059
Putin can't be blamed for what he's doing. He tried to get along with the West but failed. He even failed to get along with the EU, although I'm sure he believes it's in the best interests of and would be beneficial to both sides. So he had to conclude that the West considers him an enemy and he has to act accordingly.
#14859065
Putin can't be blamed for what he's doing. He tried to get along with the West but failed. He even failed to get along with the EU, although I'm sure he believes it's in the best interests of and would be beneficial to both sides. So he had to conclude that the West considers him an enemy and he has to act accordingly.

Indeed. Back in 1991, Russia essentially surrendered to the West. That drunken traitor Yeltsin dissolved the Soviet Union, banned the Communist Party and gave up all of Russia's strategic positions against the West. What more did the West want? But no, apparently it wasn't enough. The mere fact that the Russian nation-state still existed seemed to enrage the Western ruling elite, who continued to act as though the Cold War was still on. After a decade of this treatment, the remnants of the Russian nation-state rallied and began pushing back. And now the West is whining about Putin's "dirty tricks" and "provocations". It's absurd. :roll:
#14859067
Potemkin wrote:What more did the West want? But no, apparently it wasn't enough. The mere fact that the Russian nation-state still existed seemed to enrage the Western ruling elite, who continued to act as though the Cold War was still on.

I think they wanted the same as they got with Japan and Germany after WW2.

Or else Carthage must be destroyed!
#14859069
I think they wanted the same as they got with Japan and Germany after WW2.

Or else Carthage must be destroyed!

The Allies had earned their victory over Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan the hard way. The same cannot be said for their victory in the Cold War. They got it cheap. They were therefore not in a realistic position to treat post-Soviet Russia the same way they had treated Germany and Japan in 1945. Their hubristic refusal to recognise this fact has cost the world dearly - a unique opportunity to reset the West's relationship with Russia was lost in the 1990s. That opportunity will not return for centuries.
#14859070
Beren wrote:I think they wanted the same as they got with Japan and Germany after WW2.

Or else Carthage must be destroyed!


Except they never gave Russia any aid or support like they did with Germany and Japan. In fact it would appear that they deliberately gave bad advice.

And they pushed for further division of Russia into smaller parts. I don't think Russia will get luxury treatment until it relinquishes everything and becomes a small Muscovite republic.

Potemkin wrote:The Allies had earned their victory over Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan the hard way. The same cannot be said for their victory in the Cold War. They got it cheap. They were therefore not in a realistic position to treat post-Soviet Russia the same way they had treated Germany and Japan in 1945. Their hubristic refusal to recognise this fact has cost the world dearly - a unique opportunity to reset the West's relationship with Russia was lost in the 1990s. That opportunity will not return for centuries.


Relations have never been good and possibly never will be. Unless of course one submits to the other, but it is unlikely.
#14859073
Potemkin wrote:The Allies had earned their victory over Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan the hard way. The same cannot be said for their victory in the Cold War. They got it cheap. They were therefore not in a realistic position to treat post-Soviet Russia the same way they had treated Germany and Japan in 1945. Their hubristic refusal to recognise this fact has cost the world dearly - a unique opportunity to reset the West's relationship with Russia was lost in the 1990s. That opportunity will not return for centuries.



There have been other opportunities to reset relations with various nations identified as rivals by the Western power elites. Iran, for example, was interested in better relations with American after the first and second Gulf Wars. But the Americans weren’t interested.

I blame it on universal sufferage. Because the power elites need to persuade the plebs to pay for enough bombs, it becomes necessary to foster enemies of the West that can be presented to said plebs as reasons why more bombs are needed. See, if the power elites weren’t so insecure, then they would be better placed to conduct traditional diplomacy between states.

So democracy as it exists in the West drives conflict. It also creates a need for PC cod’s wallop to further justify to the plebs as to why Western values are so super to everyone else and why regime change or similar violations of sovereignty is so necessary in country X.

The contemporary Western liberal democratic system is uncompromising and destructive. But what else should one expect from a system that the ultimate expression of the liberal bourgeoisie’s ruthless quest for wealth and status.

I don’t it is just the case that the West and Russia can’t get along. Without reformation, I don’t think the West can get along with anyone.
#14859078
In the Soviet period there was such an anecdote:

A new immigrant from the USSR continues to read Soviet newspapers in Israel. "I can not read the Israeli press", he explains. - It writes that in Israel inflation, corruption, demoralization, and in general Israel on the eve of a complete collapse. But the Soviet newspapers! Read and see that Israel is a powerful power that has captured half the globe and is about to capture the second!


So, now for the same reasons in Russia it is more interesting to read Western forums. The Russian forums say that corruption, inflation, crime, problems in medicine and education in Russia, a failed international policy, the lack of alternatives in power ... You will come to the Western forum - Russia influences the elections of superpowers, splits states, Russian hackers are the most famous, advertising for $150,000 turns out to be more effective than a lot of millions of western advertising ... You're just starting to be proud of the country, damn it! But then you come back and wonder how much, it turns out, Western propaganda works on the heads of the inhabitants of the West ;)
Last edited by Balancer on 04 Nov 2017 12:50, edited 1 time in total.
#14859079
Russia is merely annoying more than anything. In all reality it doesn't pose a significant threat to the west.

What Russia is mainly accused of is basically trolling western politics and stealing peoples personal information to start rumors. It's more analogous to mean girl high school antics than any actual threat to anyone.

This doesn't make Russia not annoying of course, but until the west and china finally carve up the rotting corpse of the Russian state I doubt Russia will stop being a general nuisance.
#14859081
mikema63 wrote:What Russia is mainly accused of is basically trolling western politics and stealing peoples personal information to start rumors. It's more analogous to mean girl high school antics than any actual threat to anyone.

Electing someone like a high school jock tweeting 24/7 president may be the proper thing to do then. :lol:
#14859083
Potemkin wrote:Indeed. Back in 1991, Russia essentially surrendered to the West. That drunken traitor Yeltsin dissolved the Soviet Union...


:eh: ...the SU's economy, built on cheap energy and external debt, was in free fall. That's why the SU collapsed. You sound like a Nazi believing in the Dolchstosslegende, lol.

Edit: Here's a fun slide by the way:
Image

From here: http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/pu ... 026661.pdf
#14859091
Balancer wrote:So, now for the same reasons in Russia it is more interesting to read Western forums. The Russian forums say that corruption, inflation, crime, problems in medicine and education in Russia, a failed international policy, the lack of alternatives in power ... You will come to the Western forum - Russia influences the elections of superpowers, splits states, Russian hackers are the most famous, advertising for $150,000 turns out to be more effective than a lot of millions of western advertising


Why the hell is that surprising? One is about problems in Russia and the other about the problems Russia (presumably) causes in the West. It's obvious Russians are interested in the former and Westerners in the latter. Besides, why do you never connect corruption etc. to Russian politics? That shit doesn't fall from the sky.
#14859158
Rugoz wrote:
:eh: ...the SU's economy, built on cheap energy and external debt, was in free fall. That's why the SU collapsed. You sound like a Nazi believing in the Dolchstosslegende, lol.


If you look at the graph you will see it coincides with the time of Glasnost and Perestroika. Gorbachev's reforms were very destructive and made economic problems worse.
#14859204
Political Interest wrote:If you look at the graph you will see it coincides with the time of Glasnost and Perestroika. Gorbachev's reforms were very destructive and made economic problems worse.

Come on PI, do you really believe the USSR collapsed because of Gorbachev? They collapsed because they didn't realise what the Chinese did in the late 70's and didn't do what they did under Deng. Gorbachev was too little, too late actually.
#14859334
Beren wrote:Come on PI, do you really believe the USSR collapsed because of Gorbachev? They collapsed because they didn't realise what the Chinese did in the late 70's and didn't do what they did under Deng. Gorbachev was too little, too late actually.


There are many reasons for the fall of the USSR. And none of them in itself was fatal. It was the addition of many different reasons together and, most importantly, the desire of many decisive people to do this.

Therefore, the debate over why the USSR collapsed will be endless. And everyone, who calls only one reason, will be both right and wrong.

The truth is that, firstly, there were people who wanted to destroy the USSR, and the USSR itself, for many reasons, was weakened to such an extent that it became possible to disrupt it.

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