The Restoration of The British Monarchy. Is It Possible? - Page 14 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14880315
Doug64 wrote:That's an impressive list of powers. Though I suspect that if she actually tried to exercise most of them it would instantly result in a constitutional crisis.

Except they are constitutional.. so the actual crisis would just be in the minds of all the people such as yourself and @B0ycey who imagined that monarchies are somehow republics despite not being republics. So it wouldn't be a constitutional crisis it would be a personal one.
#14880317
Someone is unaware of who won the English civil war. I wonder who writes the Queen speech?

Her powers are ceremonial. If she ever tried to execute her powers she would lose them. The army swears alligence to the Queen but their orders come from Westminster. This is all wishful thinking from you @SolarCross and it doesn't match reality.
#14880319
B0ycey wrote:Someone is unaware of who won the English civil war. I wonder who writes the Queen speech?

Her powers are ceremonial. If she ever tried to execute her powers she would lose them. The army swears alligence to the Queen but their orders come from Westminster. This is all wishful thinking from you @SolarCross and it doesn't match reality.

Someone doesn't know their history, Cromwell won it for all of 9 years before King Charles I son, also called Charles, was restored to his property. Also Cromwell was a regicide and an usurper not a republican in that sense he is no different to King Henry Tudor or King William the Conqueror. The only reason he didn't call himself king afterwards is because he won with the support of certain moneylenders who had a particular reason for wanting the Edict of Expulsion of 1290 to be scratched from the law of the land but the peculiar wording of that edict means it can only be lawfully ended with the end of kingship on the Island, hence why Cromwell styled himself as Lord Protector instead of king as a compromise with his financial backers.
#14880347
B0ycey wrote:The monarchy was restored as a puppet for Westminster to bring order. You can be ignorant if you like. But you convince no one.

Speaking of parliament..
In Cromwell's day parliament was considerably more powerful and rebellious than it is today. This was long before universal suffrage, everyone there was a lord, they were all basically equivalent to mini-kings in their own right having personal command of armed forces, personal tax raising powers and their own dominions. They weren't crippled by the need to get elected by anyone.

Now parliament is a completely different and quite hobbled little beast as it just has a vestigial lords partly composed of the semi-dispossessed descendants of those aforementioned lords and a commons composed entirely by people just there temporarily in between better paying jobs as lawyers or similar. There is no comparison. Parliament then was the same people that started the two baron's wars, the war of the roses and of course the ECW. Now they are a bunch of nobodies with no power worth mentioning who can't even stay in the job for more than a few years before a bunch of other nobodies will randomly kick them out. Parliament isn't even one parliament anymore being divided into three one each for Scotland, Wales and weirdly the UK as a whole.

The monarchy has now in contrast 15 other countries which is far more than in Cromwell's day. And unlike Cromwell's day there is literally zero chance of the lords or the commons rebelling on the monarchy and switching out who gets to rule.
#14880355
SolarCross wrote:Except they are constitutional.. so the actual crisis would just be in the minds of all the people such as yourself and @B0ycey who imagined that monarchies are somehow republics despite not being republics. So it wouldn't be a constitutional crisis it would be a personal one.

In many respects an unwritten constitution, as much habit and tradition as anything else — and that habit and tradition has ceded practical power to Parliament while theoretically leaving it in the hands of the monarch. You ought to check out G. K. Chesterton’s take on the difference between the British monarch and the American president.

And going with the definition of “republic” as a system of government that mixes elements of the three types of government together (monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy), England has been a republic ever since Parliament became more than a rubber stamp and mouthpiece for the monarch.
#14880384
Doug64 wrote:In many respects an unwritten constitution, as much habit and tradition as anything else — and that habit and tradition has ceded practical power to Parliament while theoretically leaving it in the hands of the monarch. You ought to check out G. K. Chesterton’s take on the difference between the British monarch and the American president.

And going with the definition of “republic” as a system of government that mixes elements of the three types of government together (monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy), England has been a republic ever since Parliament became more than a rubber stamp and mouthpiece for the monarch.

Your definition of a republic makes everything a republic, even Saudi Arabia. Also parliament is more a "rubberstamp and mouthpiece" than it ever was. The parliament of the glorious revolution saw fit to betray one king for another, literally enabling a foreign king to stage an invasion. The parliament of Simon De Montfort went into armed rebellion against the king. Parliament was a rowdy pit of snakes and demons, hellbent on insurrection and usurpation and now it is nice and safe and tame. There is zero danger to the monarchy from any parliament since the 1700s and it more tame now than ever.

The reason why it became tame was the relative empowerment of the commons versus the lords, especially universal suffrage. The king's worst enemy is not generally the average man in the street but the lords, only the lords. The lords all fancy themselves king and their loyalty can't be bought except by the most extravagant gestures and anything you give them only makes them demand more and gives them more resources to use against you. The common man? He never imagines himself king any more than he plans to go on holiday on the moon, it is just inconceivable. And all a king has to do buy his loyalty is not oppress him too much which is a very cheap price!

Understand this the commons was not a check on the monarchy but a check on the lords, the empowerment of the commons thus serves to empower the monarchy at the expense of the lords. The monarchy now has a complete monopoly over the armed forces where once a upon a time it had to share that privilege with the lords. Now the lords have nothing!

Now the better definition of republic is where the ultimate owner of the national real estate is a ghost called the "public" which is the amorphous aggregate of all the citizen's souls. A monarchy in contrast is where the national real estate is ultimately owned by an actual person, the king or sultan or whatever. A monarchy can have a public but indeed unless it was a desert island with only one resident, the king himself, it must have a public but the people that compose the public are subjects, tenants essentially, not without rights, a tenant can have rights, but the owner is not the public it is an actual person, a king.

In this way the US is a republic but the UK is a kingdom or monarchy. The US head of estate is just an agent of the principal, a president or whatever, with the shareholders, the principal, being the ghostly "public". The UK's head of state is the principal with all else serving as agents.

Democracy is by no means anathema to monarchy, indeed universal suffrage turned out to be a great way to protect it from the usurpers, the lords. Certainly many a republic had no democracy.
#14880392
SolarCross wrote:Who is loyal to the Queen?
- Armed Forces
- Her Majesties Revenue Collection
- Civil Service
- Foreign Office
- Secret Service
- also, hilariously, parliament itself

Who is loyal to parliament?
- The people? Nope polls show the monarchy is by far and away far more popular with the plebs for a least a hundred years than parliament ever was.

So where does the power lie really? Both formally and actually it is with the monarchy whatever else @B0ycey may fantasise.


Sorry, but this is hilariously stupid.

The queen will not do anything, and if she tried, her ceremonial powers would be taken from her.

The monarchy has no leverage and no way to force parliament or the capitalist class to do anything they do not want to.

As for Cromwell and Charles II, do you know what Charles II did after he was given back the throne? Whatever parliament wanted. Because he knew they would decapitate him if he didn’t.
#14880396
B0ycey wrote:
Someone is unaware of who won the English civil war. I wonder who writes the Queen speech?[/

Her powers are ceremonial. If she ever tried to execute her powers she would lose them. The army swears alligence to the Queen but their orders come from Westminster. This is all wishful thinking from you @SolarCross and it doesn't match reality.[/quote]



Sort of. Her powers are potential; her role is largely ceremonial, but she does have rights and duties.

pants-of-dog wrote:Sorry, but this is hilariously stupid.

The queen will not do anything, and if she tried, her ceremonial powers would be taken from her.

The monarchy has no leverage and no way to force parliament or the capitalist class to do anything they do not want to.


She certainly has and does. In fact, it's her duty to intervene if Parliament does ,or tries to do, anything unconstitutional.



As for Cromwell and Charles II, do you know what Charles II did after he was given back the throne? Whatever parliament wanted. Because he knew they would decapitate him if he didn’t.




It wasn't until after his death and the glorious revolution that Britain's monarchy became constitutional.
Charles always did more or less what he wanted.
#14880400
snapdragon wrote:She certainly has and does. In fact, it's her duty to intervene if Parliament does ,or tries to do, anything unconstitutional.


Maybe, but that does not change the fact that she has no leverage to force parliament to do anything. And if she tried to get rid of the constitution that deprives her of her power and try to get power, she would have no ability to do so.

It wasn't until after his death and the glorious revolution that Britain's monarchy became constitutional.
Charles always did more or less what he wanted.


Yes, but Charles II didn’t.
#14880509
SolarCross wrote:Your definition of a republic makes everything a republic, even Saudi Arabia.

Nope, not even close. Outside of England once Parliament acquired the right to refuse taxes the king wanted, none of the medieval monarchies were republics, being essentially aristocracies with the king the first among equals if that. What determines the type of government is who has the final say in all questions. If it's a single person, it's a monarchy. If it is a small number of people, it's an aristocracy. If it's a significant percentage of the population (and therefore for most of our history, includes the lower classes if not the lowest), you have a democracy. If it's "none of the above" with elements of all three in some circumstances, you have a republic. So with Parliament being a separate center of partial sovereignty and having both a House of Lords and Commons, England (and later the UK) has been a republic for centuries, probably the nation with the longest history of republicanism in history. Though with the declining power of the House of Lords and the powers of the monarchy almost entirely theoretical at this point, the UK is close to becoming a democracy instead.
Last edited by Doug64 on 19 Jan 2018 14:25, edited 1 time in total.
#14880556
SolarCross wrote:Someone doesn't know their history, Cromwell won it for all of 9 years before King Charles I son, also called Charles, was restored to his property. Also Cromwell was a regicide and an usurper not a republican in that sense he is no different to King Henry Tudor or King William the Conqueror. The only reason he didn't call himself king afterwards is because he won with the support of certain moneylenders who had a particular reason for wanting the Edict of Expulsion of 1290 to be scratched from the law of the land but the peculiar wording of that edict means it can only be lawfully ended with the end of kingship on the Island, hence why Cromwell styled himself as Lord Protector instead of king as a compromise with his financial backers.


The Jews were secretly controlling Cromwell? Where have you got this from? :lol:
#14880600
Decky wrote:The Jews were secretly controlling Cromwell? Where have you got this from? :lol:

They weren't controlling him just doing business, forget your catholic paranoia about jews bourgeoisie ((((capitalists)))) Mossad hadn't been founded then.

It was a trade, Cromwell helped the jews by undoing the edict of expulsion and the jews lent him the money to build his new model army. None of this is a secret.

http://www.olivercromwell.org/jews.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resettlem ... ews_abroad

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/ ... ell-oliver

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/ ... ben-israel
#14880631
Pants-of-dog wrote:Maybe, but that does not change the fact that she has no leverage to force parliament to do anything. And if she tried to get rid of the constitution that deprives her of her power and try to get power, she would have no ability to do so.


Of course not. The Monarch isn't a dictator.


Yes, but Charles II didn’t.


Yeah, he did. He dissolved Parliament and ruled alone when his dealings with France were discovered.
#14880955
Pants-of-dog wrote:You are correct, he did dissolve parliament.


Cromwell dissolved it too, once he was absolute dictator for life, or lord protector or whatever. The speech he gave when he dissolved it is below, it's fun.

It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place,

which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice.

Ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government.

Ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess?

Ye have no more religion than my horse. Gold is your God. Which of you have not bartered your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defiled this sacred place, and turned the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices?

Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation. You were deputed here by the people to get grievances redressed, are yourselves become the greatest grievance.

Your country therefore calls upon me to cleanse this Augean stable, by putting a final period to your iniquitous proceedings in this House; and which by God's help, and the strength he has given me, I am now come to do.

I command ye therefore, upon the peril of your lives, to depart immediately out of this place.

Go, get you out! Make haste! Ye venal slaves be gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.

In the name of God, go!


http://www.emersonkent.com/speeches/dis ... iament.htm

Also you may like to know that Cromwell decreed for his eldest son to succeed him to his position. :lol:

Richard Cromwell, his son, ruled as Lord Protector for about 8 months after Oliver Cromwell died but he couldn't win the loyalty of the army and was deposed by the army in favour of restoring the son of Charles I to the throne. Lucky for Richard the army didn't murder him by beheading him in broad daylight after a show trial as his father had done to Charles I.
#14880995
Sure, but this does not mean that QE2 has the leverage and actual power to do anything.

It seems best to look at Cromwell and his revolution as the beginning of the end of the British monarchy. Since then, there has been a gradual dissolution of the power of the monarchy in favour of parliament. And now, almost all the power resides in parliament and even the few powers left to the monarchy are ceremonial and exist only by the grace of parliament.

Can you name an instance in the last fifty years where a British monarch has done anything political to challenge the power of parliament?
#14881004
SolarCross wrote:Also you may like to know that Cromwell decreed for his eldest son to succeed him to his position. :lol:

Richard Cromwell, his son, ruled as Lord Protector for about 8 months after Oliver Cromwell died but he couldn't win the loyalty of the army and was deposed by the army in favour of restoring the son of Charles I to the throne. Lucky for Richard the army didn't murder him by beheading him in broad daylight after a show trial as his father had done to Charles I.

Cromwell was actually an effective monarch. If he hadn’t been a usurper — and his Puritan supporters determined to take all the fun out of life — his son would have had no problem succeeding him and possibly even establishing a true monarchy as happened in France.
#14881352
Pants-of-dog wrote:Sure, but this does not mean that QE2 has the leverage and actual power to do anything.


The Monarch's power is potential.

It seems best to look at Cromwell and his revolution as the beginning of the end of the British monarchy. Since then, there has been a gradual dissolution of the power of the monarchy in favour of parliament. And now, almost all the power resides in parliament and even the few powers left to the monarchy are ceremonial and exist only by the grace of parliament.


Both the Monarch and parliament are bound by the constitition. If either exceeds their boundaries, then the other will intercede. Checks and balances.

Can you name an instance in the last fifty years where a British monarch has done anything political to challenge the power of parliament?


The last time was in 1963, when she exercised the royal preroragitive and ordered Alec Douglas Home to form a government....although the Queen did intercede through her viceroys in Canada in 1961 and in Australia in 1975.

Not sure about the background to those times.
#14881357
snapdragon wrote:The Monarch's power is potential.

Both the Monarch and parliament are bound by the constitition. If either exceeds their boundaries, then the other will intercede. Checks and balances.


I disagree. I think all the checks and balances limiting parliament are either built directly into the parliamentary system, or they exist in other parts of the government such as the judicial branch.

The last time was in 1963, when she exercised the royal preroragitive and ordered Alec Douglas Home to form a government....although the Queen did intercede through her viceroys in Canada in 1961 and in Australia in 1975.

Not sure about the background to those times.


And the 1963 incident was only about choosing the next PM from a list of candidates. In fact, the throne simply followed Macmillan’s advice. It would be more accurate to say that a faction in the Conservative party was able to bend her ear and use the monarch’s limited power to ensure Macmillan’s choice as his successor.

Being part of someone else’s power play is not evidence of power.
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