Poland facing sanctions - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By foxdemon
#14873134
I am surprised no one has posted about this already. Looks like Poland are digging in theirs heals. Germany and France will support the Euro Com. Hungry said they won’t. Which way will Austria go?

Out of curiosity, what sort of sanctions will the EC be likely to impose?


https://euobserver.com/justice/140369

Poland becomes first in EU history to face sanctions

Timmermans said Poland has depicted him as a 'lone madman' (Photo: ec.europa.eu)
By ANDREW RETTMAN

BRUSSELS, 20. DEC, 16:16
The European Commission has triggered an unprecedented sanctions procedure against Poland, prompting an immediate backlash.
"It's with a heavy heart that we've decided to trigger article 7 point 1 [of the EU treaty], but the facts leave us no choice," Frans Timmermans, the Dutch commissioner in charge of the file, said in Brussels on Wednesday (20 December).


Morawiecki agreed to meet Juncker in January (Photo: consilium.europa.eu)
He said the Polish government had seized political control of courts and judges, creating a "clear risk of a serious breach of rule of law".

"Today in Poland, the constitutionality of legislation can no longer be guaranteed," Timmermans said.

"There is an issue with the separation of powers, which is no longer in place," he added.

Wednesday's decision could lead to Poland's voting rights in the EU Council being suspended in the new year.

Member states and MEPs will decide in early 2018 whether they back the commission's conclusions and whether to subsequently enact article 7 point 2 on the voting restrictions.

France and Germany have already said they stand by the commission, while Hungary has said it stands by Poland in the biggest rift between old and new member states since the 2004 wave of enlargement.

Timmermans underlined the gravity of the events.

He said defending the rule of law in member states was an "existential question" for the EU.

He also thanked Polish people for having helped to end Cold War-era divisions in Europe, adding: "Poland, for me, is a member of the EU that the EU cannot do without".

He said there was still plenty of time for Polish authorities to back down.

The commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, the same day invited Polish prime minister Mateusz Morawiecki for talks on 9 January to try to "overcome the differences we presently have".

Poland reacts

Morawiecki agreed to come, but he added that "the reform of the judicial sector in Poland is necessary".

Zbigniew Ziobro, the Polish justice minister, also indicated that the Polish government would fight to the bitter end, including, if it had to, in the EU court in Luxembourg.

"Poland will only be a valued country in Europe and the EU if it has fair and efficient courts, so we have to ensure that the courts finally start working fairly and properly, and to continue the judicial reforms," he told press in Warsaw.

A Polish government spokeswoman said "these [EU] procedures are unnecessary because there is no basis for them. There won't be any sanctions".

The judicial dispute aside, the Polish government has also seized control of state media.

Timmermans said he expected to become a target of disinformation as a result of Wednesday's decision.

"I'm not naive. I know some will try to construe this as an attack on Poland or an attack on the Polish people. We've seen it before," he said.

Timmermans spoke of "myths spread in Polish media" that he was just "one madman in the commission who can't let go of this".

The Polish reaction on Wednesday contained misleading statements.

Ziobro said the commission was angry that Poland had refused to raise the retirement age of women judges.

He also said the Polish judicial reforms "did not contain any solutions that were not already in place in other EU countries' systems".

Disinformation

The commission had in fact complained about Poland's use of retirement criteria to sack independent judges.

The judicial reforms were also deemed to cross red lines by the Council of Europe in Strasbourg, by the UN, and by the OSCE.

The Polish government spokeswoman said "to be honest, we haven't heard any concrete accusation" from the commission.

But the commission set out its objections to 13 Polish laws in three formal recommendations and in more than 25 informal letters in the past two years.

The Polish government also said the EU affair had been cooked up by Polish opposition parties.

But that did not deter Donald Tusk, the EU Council president and a former Polish prime minister, from speaking out on Wednesday.

He said the Polish government had "put itself above the law".

"Poland, and I think it's a deliberate policy, has turned its back to the whole EU and, more broadly, to the West," he said.

Austria?

The last time the EU discussed article 7 was when a far-right party joined a coalition in Austria 17 years ago.

A far-right party joined the government in Austria once again this week.

But Timmermans said there was no talk of sanctions because the coalition pact did not foresee anything that went against EU norms.

"The commission will judge the Austrian government on the basis of what they do … if the actions of the Austrian government indicated a clear risk of the breach of rule of law, the commission would act," he said.
#14873153
foxdemon wrote:I am surprised no one has posted about this already. Looks like Poland are digging in theirs heals. Germany and France will support the Euro Com. Hungry said they won’t. Which way will Austria go?

Out of curiosity, what sort of sanctions will the EC be likely to impose?


They deserve it. Threatening the independence of courts is a serious issue. Has nothing to do with immigration, etc
27 member states should vote on this. If majority is for this then we should proceed.
#14873161
The independence of the judiciary is indispensable for democracy. The ruling PiS would never give the ministry such far-reaching powers if it expected the opposition to get back into government. We are witnessing the beginning of an autocratic state and the EU is right to use the "nuclear option" of Article 7.

EU takes unprecedented action against Poland to halt slide towards authoritarianism

The European Commission has taken the unprecedented step of recommending a move towards political sanctions against Poland to stop the drift towards authoritarianism in the EU member state.

Over the last two years Polish government has passed 13 laws that would help it stuff “the entire structure of the justice system” with political appointees, including courts that decide the validity of election results. It comes amid a growing nationalist movement in the country operating with the tacit support of the government

After years of warnings about the changes, the Commission on Wednesday said it was moving to invoke Article 7.1 of the EU treaty for the first time ever – starting a legal process whose end would see Poland stripped of its voting rights at EU level.

Frans Timmermans, the first vice-president of the European Commission, told reporters in Brussels that the Commission was invoking the treaty clause “with a heavy heart”.

“If you put an end or limit the separation of powers, you break down the rule of law, and that means breaking down the smooth functioning of the Union as a whole,” he said.

“The Commission has issued a rule of law opinion and three rule of law recommendations, it has exchanged more than 25 letters with the Polish authorities on this matter; numerous meetings and contact between the Commission and Polish authorities have taken place.”

He added: “Sadly, our concerns have deepened. Within a period of two years, 13 laws have been adopted which put at serious risk the independence of the judiciary and the separation of powers in Poland.

The entire structure of the justice system is affected: the constitutional tribunal, the supreme court, the ordinary courts, the national council for the judiciary, the prosecution service, and the national school of judiciary.

The common pattern of all these legislative changes is that the executive or legislative powers are now set up in such a way that the ruling majority can now systematically interfere with the composition, power, and administration or functioning of these authorities – thereby rendering the independence of the judiciary completely moot.

Mateusz Morawiecki, Poland’s Prime Minister, said: “Poland is as devoted to the rule of law as the rest of the EU. Current judiciary reform is deeply needed. The dialogue between the Commission and Warsaw needs to be both open and honest. I believe that Poland’s sovereignty and the idea of United Europe can be reconciled”.

However, a spokesperson for his ruling Law and Justice party suggested that the decision was politically motived, and in fact because “we don't want to accept Muslim migrants, as we care for the security of Poles”. 60,000 nationalists marched in Warsaw on Polish independence day, with some carrying banners calling for a "White Europe". The march was attended by significant numbers of Law and Justice supporters, and defended by the Government as a "a great celebration of Poles".

Under the Polish government’s judicial changes, almost 40 per cent of current Supreme Court judges would be forced into retirement, with discretionary powers given to the president to retain favoured justices. New appointments would be made on the recommendation of a newly constituted council dominated by the appointees of ruling parties. Other courts throughout the whole judicial system would also face similar controls from the government and president.

Mr Timmermans made clear that the European Commission was open to restarting talks with the Polish government about the issue at any time and that if the country’s Government fixed the proposals within three months it would consider withdrawing the move.

European Council president Donald Tusk said last week that he had not received a response from the Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki when he asked to meet at the European Council summit on Thursday and Friday.

The next step in the Article 7 procedure will be for EU heads of state to consider the Commission’s procedure and to vote on it. This is expected to take place at the March meeting of the European Council; in order for the proposal to pass, a supermajority of four fifths is required. The European Parliament would also have to back the motion.

The Article 7.1 motion put forward by the Commission will warn that there “is a clear risk of a serious breach by a Member State of the values” of the EU – which include the rule of law and the independence of the judiciary.

If the breach continues then member states can be asked to vote again, under Article 7.2, to confirm that there is a “serious and persistent breach” – which if passed could see Poland’s voting rights in EU institutions suspended.

The second vote would however be harder to pass, because it requires the unanimous consent of the other EU member states – and Hungary’s right-wing authoritarian prime minister Viktor Orbán has said he would vote against such a move. Mr Orbán has also been accused of pursuing anti-democratic reform.
#14873238
JohnRawls wrote:They deserve it. Threatening the independence of courts is a serious issue. Has nothing to do with immigration, etc
27 member states should vote on this. If majority is for this then we should proceed.


Does Poland get a vote? Presumably not. So 26 votes?

That would be 21 votes to pass?

If 4 national leaders vote against, it fails. Hungry is voting against so just needs 3 others.

A second vote should the first fail, requires unanimous support. Presumably Poland doesn’t get a vote here. Hungry will vote against, so revote will fail.

What happens if the EC can’t impose sanctions?
#14873322
foxdemon wrote:I am surprised no one has posted about this already. Looks like Poland are digging in theirs heals. Germany and France will support the Euro Com. Hungry said they won’t. Which way will Austria go?

Out of curiosity, what sort of sanctions will the EC be likely to impose?

The "nuclear" option would be taking away Poland's EU voting rights and I suspect Austria would agree with France and Germany. There is no real danger for Poland though, as the imposition of sanctions is a two step process, and the second step requires unanimity. Hungary has already announced that it will use its veto, so Poland will not face any serious consequences.

As a side note, PiS is apparently "more popular than ever".

Politico wrote:
Poland won’t back down

The government wants to make changes to the legal system, but isn’t keen on a war with Brussels.

WARSAW — If the European Commission thought Poland would back down in the wake of its decision to trigger the Article 7 process that could ultimately lead to Warsaw losing EU voting rights, it was dead wrong. President Andrzej Duda addressed the nation on Wednesday evening, and announced he would sign two controversial laws that critics say tighten political control over the country’s judicial system, and which the Commission has referred to the European Court of Justice.

What was striking about Duda’s speech was the tone. Unlike previous fiery responses from Warsaw during the two-year confrontation with Brussels over changes made by the ruling Law and Justice (PiS) party, the president was remarkably non-confrontational. “We’re bringing in very good solutions in Poland that will serve to improve the justice system,” Duda said, decrying criticism of the measures but not directly mentioning the Commission’s actions from earlier in the day. “Poland will be a significant country if it has well-functioning courts. We have to continue with the reforms of the justice system” — Zbigniew Ziobro, justice minister

It’s an approach that was replicated across the Polish capital on Wednesday, as Warsaw digested the blow from Brussels, which launched its Article 7 procedure and put Poland on a path that could ultimately lead to the suspension of its EU voting rights over concerns about the rule of law. The more careful tone is a reflection of just how exposed Warsaw is in its ongoing confrontation with the EU — a path that has led the country from being one of the bloc’s heavy hitters two years ago, to an increasingly marginalized member.

Zbigniew Ziobro, the justice minister, stressed Wednesday that Poland “will be a significant country if it has well-functioning courts. We have to continue with the reforms of the justice system.” To underline that point, on Wednesday he continued his purge of senior judges, dismissing several with faxes sent from his ministry. But his language was colorless compared to previous confrontations with Brussels and West European countries. During a spat with Paris, a deputy defense minister pointed out to the French that they learned to eat with forks thanks to Poles; last year, Ziobro lambasted Commission First Vice President Frans Timmermans for being of a “left-wing persuasion.” Mateusz Morawiecki, the newly installed prime minister, was also circumspect, saying, “Poland is tied to the principles of the rule of law like the rest of the EU.”

Gains from confrontation

The problem for the government is that it has gained just about all there is to gain politically from its fight with Brussels. PiS is more popular than ever — one recent opinion poll found it had the support of half of voters — while the opposition parties are in disarray. PiS has used the tussle with the Commission to strengthen its hold on power, portraying Poland as standing up against a cosmopolitan elite in Brussels that wants to foist Muslim migrants on the country and undermine its patriotic values. But the risks of that fight are now starting to outweigh the rewards.

Poland is the largest overall beneficiary of EU cash — set to receive about €100 billion in structural, agricultural and other funds during the current seven-year budget ending in 2020. But there is increasing disquiet in parts of Western Europe about sending so much money to a country that violates the EU’s norms. Talks on the post-2020 budget were going to be difficult anyway because of Brexit. But they will be even more fraught for Warsaw if other countries try to shift money to areas like higher education or research and development, which will net Poland much less.

Worries over the court system and being tarred as a country violating the EU’s legal standards won’t be much comfort to investors either. Although Poland is experiencing strong economic growth — GDP is expected to expand by 4.2 percent this year and 3.8 percent in 2018 — investment is lagging. Investment growth is only 3.3 percent this year — significantly worse than the 5 percent expected by many economists. Poland is the largest overall beneficiary of EU cash — and many of its inhabitants are enthusiastic members of the bloc. “Some of the most frequent questions I get are from investors worried about the judicial system,” said a senior executive at a Warsaw-based private equity fund.

There are also big political dangers in being seen as the EU’s black sheep. Although Poles aren’t keen on taking in migrants, and are tied to their national values, they are also enthusiastic members of the EU. One national survey found that 88 percent support Poland being in the bloc. The only time PiS saw a serious deterioration in its poll ratings in the last two years was in March after Warsaw’s failed attempt to deny Donald Tusk a second term as president of the European Council. That effort was defeated 27-1 by other member countries, underlining Poland’s lack of EU allies and humiliating the government.

Despite the more careful tone coming out of Warsaw, there is no indication that the government and its supporters intend to backtrack on the controversial reforms to the judicial system that led to Wednesday’s decision by the Commission. “I’ve taken a decision. The voices of criticism I’m hearing around me are deeply surprising,” Duda said in his speech.

By Baff
#14877221
Poland seeks independence from the EU judiciary. As does the rest of the planet I expect.

The history of Poland is such that it rejects the kind of rulership the EU is trying to take. Life under the Soviet Union has not been forgotten.

No idea what sort of sanctions the EU will end up making.

There are comparisons with the UK in terms of not wanting the kind of fascist state the EU wishes to become and only wanting the trade deal. Except the UK doesn't want the EU trade deal and I think Poland still does.
I think Poland will stay in. Ireland and Belgium are the weakest links at the moment to my eyes.

I sort of think that just as US independence taught the British Empire to reconsider how it treated the other Commonwealth members that Brexit will give the EU impetus to address it's own "tyranny".
By fokker
#14877257
Poland could have at least given this power to parliament instead of justice minister and make the law temporary. I understand there may be need to sack some corrupt or incompetent judges and this is the only way as in independent judiciary it rarely happens as they protect each other. Germany also sacked east German judges after unification.
By Baff
#14877514
I think the Polish have strong historical issues with Germany wishing to impose it's way on them.
It isn't going to wash mate. As long as you think you know better than them and are in a position to force them to your way of thinking, you've got nothing.

Worse than nothing, keep that crap up and you've got war.
#14877518
fokker wrote:Poland could have at least given this power to parliament instead of justice minister and make the law temporary. I understand there may be need to sack some corrupt or incompetent judges and this is the only way as in independent judiciary it rarely happens as they protect each other.

The Polish justice system needs reform because it is very inefficient and cases are dragged out for ever; however, the current changes will do nothing to mend these problems. The changes are an attack on the independence of the judiciary. Together with an attack on the independent press and the independence of the central bank, PiS is taking the country in the direction of an authoritarian one-party state a la Orban, Erdogan or Putin. Such a state has no place in the EU. The EU is for democratic countries only. If the Poles don't leave the EU, the EU will have to leave Poland.

Germany also sacked east German judges after unification.

That is in no way comparable. East German judges served a dictatorship. They had no idea about the role of the judiciary in a democracy. The comparison only holds if you suppose that there is a similar change in Poland in the opposite direction, from a democracy to a dictatorship. Fortunately, we aren't there yet. But we are certainly on a slippery slope, and if the EU doesn't put down its foot now, there will be no way of preventing the hollowing out of democracy with catastrophic consequences for the whole of Europe.

@Baff, it is not surprising that the Brits are supporting the anti-democratic forces in Europe. They never shied away from supporting fascism if it suited their geopolitical games. Imperialists through and through.
#14877528
Atlantis wrote:Together with an attack on the independent press and the independence of the central bank, PiS is taking the country in the direction of an authoritarian one-party state a la Orban, Erdogan or Putin. Such a state has no place in the EU. The EU is for democratic countries only. If the Poles don't leave the EU, the EU will have to leave Poland.

Surely, the EU would have to start with Hungary if it is, as you claim, a one party state and comparable to Turkey and Russia.

It would actually be great if the EU would "leave Poland or Hungary", but we all know that there is not mechanism for this. In fact, even if the EU could, it wouldn't expel any member at a time when its first priority is to prevent more countries from leaving.
By Baff
#14877555
Atlantis wrote:
@Baff, it is not surprising that the Brits are supporting the anti-democratic forces in Europe. They never shied away from supporting fascism if it suited their geopolitical games. Imperialists through and through.

I'm not sure that it is anti democratic.
The problem is the people making that argument are the very last people I trust on the subject matter.

Ostensibly, Judges are political appointments. The government of the day appoints them. And this is the same everywhere.
The question here, is only, who is the legitimate government in Poland.

In this case that is the democratically elected government of Poland. Not those who failed to get elected, the opposition, and not a clique of foreign diplomats, the EU. All three of those want to be the government in Poland, but only one is democratically elected to be so.

Everyone will make bullshit arguments about Democracy. But It's simply a question of who rules Poland.
Let the Polish rule. Give it a go.
It's a damn sight better than WW3.
By fokker
#14877790
Atlantis wrote:The Polish justice system needs reform because it is very inefficient and cases are dragged out for ever; however, the current changes will do nothing to mend these problems. The changes are an attack on the independence of the judiciary. Together with an attack on the independent press and the independence of the central bank, PiS is taking the country in the direction of an authoritarian one-party state a la Orban, Erdogan or Putin. Such a state has no place in the EU. The EU is for democratic countries only. If the Poles don't leave the EU, the EU will have to leave Poland.


I would give them a chance and see what is the outcome - how this power is used. If the current state is unacceptable, it is wrong for EU to try to force it on Poland. As I said in my previous post, the judicial system may be incapable of cleansing itself, as judges will not punish themselves. I do not believe in too independent judicial system. Parliament is elected by people, it needs to have power to make any changes. Western countries think their system is superior and try to force it on others but its not.

Atlantis wrote:That is in no way comparable. East German judges served a dictatorship. They had no idea about the role of the judiciary in a democracy


So did Polish, but unlike German ones they didn't get replaced.
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