Can anyone tell us about examples of when Multiculturalism has worked well? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14910028
I consider myself 'well read'.

The only place I can think of where multiculturalism worked well is Canada.

All other examples in history were not democracies. And they always had violent conflicts that the King or Emperor had to control.

Lebanon worked for a while and then was torn apart by the civil war there.

If there are actually no democratic examples in history then ---

I think that the current experiment in Europe was doomed from the get go.
It was especially doomed because it didn't aim for assimilation but rather for multiculturalism. And the 2 cultures were totally not compatible. One hated pedophiles, gave women rights, respected freedom of speech & religion, gave the minority the right to disagree without being murdered for that, and the right of the loyal opposition to try to regain political power. The other doesn't agree with any of these things. Please note I'm talking here about what the cultures believe, individuals can and do vary from the generalizations. But, culture runs deep in the human mind and can resurface easily.

I assert the the word 'culture' encompasses the outliers also unless they are being actively suppressed. For example in the 1840s Mormonism was being driven out of town so an argument could be made that Mormonism was not *then* a part of American culture. OTOH, American culture has never suppressed the ability of pimps to enslave runaway girls into prostitution. Therefore, this form of slavery is a part of American culture and would very likely be brought along if Americans colonized a new planet or place on earth.
. . Therefore, I assert that the actions of people like ISIS are a part of the culture being brought into Europe. That *some* of the new Europeans (i.e. immigrants) will act on their beliefs that such actions are totally OK or even in some cases required.

I saw a youtube video of a debate in NY City on the statement "Islam is a religion of peace". You can easily find it still. At one point one of the No-side said that moderate Muslims don't say more against the extremists because "they would be killed/murdered". The Yes-side didn't strongly assert that this was ridiculous, they seemed to agree that such thinks were slightly common. In fact the 2 women panelists (1 on each side) both had fatawas against them. So it seems that being a loud moderate Muslin who wants Islam to moderate more is likely to get an extremist to to kill them. This, therefore, seems like part of Islamic culture.
#14910092
The irony is people believing ‘more laws’ is the solution to peaceful multiculturalism. The opposite is true. You want very few laws that effect all the cultures and they need a geopolitical separation. Otherwise, they are not multicultural at all. They are just a group of diverse people fighting for common laws that benefit them.
#14910099
California is a prime example of multi-cultural success.
Steve_American wrote:The only place I can think of where multiculturalism worked well is Canada.

Like California, Canada has it's enclaves of segregationists (Both French and Indians). In both places these cultural extremists are the exception and not the rule.

The latest cultural addition to California (Arab / Middle Eastern) is considerably older than most Americans are aware of. It never raised concerns until the recent rise of jihadism. Third and forth generations blend easily and are often mistaken for Spanish. New arrivals are notable but are generally inoffensive and tend to acclimate quickly.

There are a small minority of white obstructionists in both Canada and California, they are shrinking and statistically insignificant.

Zam
#14910105
New arrivals are notable but are generally inoffensive and tend to acclimate quickly.


This is the opposite of multiculturalism. It is another confusion of race and religion with culture.
Few object to those who wish to acclimate. It is the liberal view that they don’t need to acclimate that is objectionable.
#14910106
Basically all large and successful empires were multicultural.

Of course, the TS eliminated the extreme overwhelming majority of historical societies with his laundry list of qualifiers.

As such, the question is not serious.

He's interested in a debate about current events, but he tries to frame it as an historical discussion in the flawed attempt to couch the topic in academic objectivity. Is such, it is a topic fail.
#14910108
One Degree wrote:Few object to those who wish to acclimate. It is the liberal view that they don’t need to acclimate that is objectionable.

So you think a culture is to be judged by it's (non acclimating) extremists? I'm betting you are not from California.

No they don't "Need to." Acclimation is an involuntary process, it simply occurs when cultures interact. It works both ways too ... How long will it be before Arabic restaurants franchise and go national ?

Zam
#14910109
Zamuel wrote:So you think a culture is to be judged by it's (non acclimating) extremists? I'm betting you are not from California.

No they don't "Need to." Acclimation is an involuntary process, it simply occurs when cultures interact. It works both ways too ... How long will it be before Arabic restaurants franchise and go national ?

Zam

I do not judge cultures at all. I am simply saying you can not have both multiculturalism and centralized control. They are incompatible. Liberalism is pretending you can maintain a culture by compromising with other cultures. This is a fallacy. It creates a new ‘uniform culture’ that destroys all the previous cultures.
#14910110
Multiculturalism can work if cultures are not too distant from each other

like in the UK (excluiding the recent immigration trend) Scotland Wales and England are diffrent but similar cultures that can coexist with eachother

Multiculturalism have destroyed the roman empire. foreign cultures completely different from the local culture had slowly replaced and out bred the locals
#14910113
One Degree wrote:I do not judge cultures at all. I am simply saying you can not have both multiculturalism and centralized control. They are incompatible. Liberalism is pretending you can maintain a culture by compromising with other cultures. This is a fallacy. It creates a new ‘uniform culture’ that destroys all the previous cultures.

California disproves this ... "uniform culture" ? My ass ... A fish taco joint, next to a Yokahama rice bowl, next to a Korean Karaoke Bar. Walk on down the beach boardwalk and listen to conversations in Spanish, Vietnamese, French ... see weight lifters working out right next to 20 people doing group Ti-Chi while a pod of Buddhists meditate in the shade of palm trees. And I haven't even mentioned the surfers yet.

These cultures have not been dulled or extinguished, they are vibrant and alive ... they thrive. And people love it ... Culture is not a stale and dusty thing kept in an old box for preservation.

Zam
#14910118
Zamuel wrote:California disproves this ... "uniform culture" ? My ass ... A fish taco joint, next to a Yokahama rice bowl, next to a Korean Karaoke Bar. Walk on down the beach boardwalk and listen to conversations in Spanish, Vietnamese, French ... see weight lifters working out right next to 20 people doing group Ti-Chi while a pod of Buddhists meditate in the shade of palm trees. And I haven't even mentioned the surfers yet.

These cultures have not been dulled or extinguished, they are vibrant and alive ... they thrive. And people love it ... Culture is not a stale and dusty thing kept in an old box for preservation.

Zam

Again, you are taking different races, ethnicities, and nationalities living together as multiculturalism. It is not.
Their cultures entail a lot more than the superficial things you pointed out. Will the Buddhist agree to Christian prayers in school? Will the French agree to English as the state language? In order for them to live together, they must sacrifice parts of their culture or fight for it to be dominant over the others. You are describing cultures joining in becoming a new culture, not multiculturalism. I have no objections to this other than you are pretending to preserve something you are actually destroying.
#14910120
Zamuel,
The US is an example of the success of assimilation, not multiculturalism.

To be multicultural you need to let the cultures live their own way. For example some nations in Europe have had to deal with this question --- What do you do when a married couple want to live in your nation where the man is 30 and his wife of 2 years is 13? How would Calif. answer this question?
And can a father whip his daughter until she agrees to marry a man twice her age?
#14910127
@Steve_American

Assimilation implies that there is a culture to assimilate into. America has no such culture and if it does, it certainly is inaccessible to a majority of the population. The US does not assimilate it's cultures, it merely states that it has assimilated them in order to retain the myth that it is a homogeneous nation-state. This is not the case in reality. Just because the cultures of California don't come into conflict with one another does not mean that they are assimilated. In fact, conflict with differing cultures is common place in America, they're just just not violent conflicts and are often done through economic warfare such as gentrification and taxation.

This almost never happens in the Middle East outside of the economic elite of Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states. You seem to think that this is common in the Middle East and that Muslims are bringing such customs to the West. In reality, the only thing you'll see get brought over is the idea of marrying your cousins, a custom already practiced by rural families in America and noble families in Western Europe. You need to read up on Persian and Arab culture instead of just using stereotypes from the 1950s.

@Zionist Nationalist

Ah yes, because a pop culture magazine written by an author with no degree in history at all and whose only job is to churn out clickbait articles every week is certainly the best place to find information on the Roman Empire! What genius you must have Zionist!

The whole idea that the Roman Empire fell due to a bunch of migrants has been refuted by historians time after time and people still won't shut up about it. The most easiest way to refute it without having to waste my valuable time talking to you (you aren't even worth the debate) is to simply state that you are being anachronistic.

The idea that you can apply historical events to real world problems today is known as anachronism. Furthermore, the article repeatedly uses limited amounts of sources irrelevant to one another to construct a narrative. This is called historical revisionism.

Now I understand that I am using very big words here Zionist so it's fine if you don't get it but I'll have you know that it's this is my final say on the matter. If you, for some reason, want me to write an essay about why Rome didn't fall because of migrants then I won't do it because it would be a waste of time. Even if all the evidence in the world pointed to the Roman Empire not falling from a migrant crisis, you would still believe that it did because you don't care about the truth, you care about your narrative, you care about the vile, racist, nationalistic fantasy world you have constructed and you will never let it go.
#14910128
Whatever mr proffesor

You know very well that Multiculturalism "works" as long as the ruling majority have the power when shit hit the fans the multiculti fantasy collapses very quickly
it happened so many times in the history
in Ottoman empire,Russian empire,Roman empire,Austria Hungary,Yugoslavia

multiculturalism can never work only assimilation can work and your Muslim buddies in Europe have no will to assimilate

now give me one example when did multiculturalism worked without eventually leading to a disaster?
Last edited by Zionist Nationalist on 29 Apr 2018 16:26, edited 1 time in total.
#14910129
Steve_American wrote:Zamuel, The US is an example of the success of assimilation, not multiculturalism.

I disagree ... The US incorporates more freedom and support for multi-culturalism than any other country in the world.
To be multicultural you need to let the cultures live their own way.

Now you're attempting to redefine the concept ... play by the rules or fold ... To quote the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/multiculturalism/
In the case of immigrants, proponents emphasize that multiculturalism is compatible with, not opposed to, the integration of immigrants into society

What do you do when a married couple want to live in your nation where the man is 30 and his wife of 2 years is 13? How would Calif. answer this question?

Probably in much the same way Canada would ... You cited Canada ... answer your own silly question. Multi-Culturalism does not presuppose the unaltered maintenance of interposed cultures, it does not impose stagnation. It entertains the concept of different cultures integrating themselves while maintaining common values.

Stop trying to redefine it to suit a racial agenda and justify segregation.

One Degree wrote:Again, you are taking different races, ethnicities, and nationalities living together as multiculturalism. It is not.

Yes it is ... 8)
Noted proponent - Jeremy Waldron: "What people need are cultural materials, not access to a particular cultural structure."


Zam
Last edited by Zamuel on 29 Apr 2018 16:50, edited 1 time in total.
#14910130
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/multiculturalism/
In the case of immigrants, proponents emphasize that multiculturalism is compatible with, not opposed to, the integration of immigrants into society


Come on @Zamuel , this is an obvious liberal distortion that is nonsensical. It says multiculturalism is compatible with integration. This is meaningless doublespeak. You may as well say red can allow blue to become red without stopping being blue.

Edit:
Noted proponent - Jeremy Waldron: "What people need are cultural materials, not access to a particular cultural structure."


Can you elaborate @Zamuel . This just looks like more doublespeak to me.
#14910138
One Degree wrote:Come on @Zamuel , this is an obvious liberal distortion that is nonsensical. It says multiculturalism is compatible with integration. This is meaningless doublespeak.

Sanford university disagrees with you (officially).

red can allow blue to become red without stopping being blue.

What meds do they have you on ? (enquiring minds want to know)

Zam
#14910141
Zamuel wrote:Sanford university disagrees with you (officially).


What meds do they have you on ? (enquiring minds want to know)

Zam


So, no real response. :) Just a liberal institution dedicated to liberalism disagrees with a non liberal view. Therefore, it does not matter their view logically contradicts itself. It is right by default of being politically correct? Non liberal views can not be correct because they are not liberal views.
See, I am well versed in liberal logic and doublespeak.
According to your distinguished source, “multiculturalism does not need to be multicultural to be multicultural, because we say so”?
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