Can anyone tell us about examples of when Multiculturalism has worked well? - Page 12 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14920981
Pants-of-dog wrote:It seems odd that immigrants in a multicultural city would want to impose their culture on thier hist country.


The immigrants aren't multiculturalists, they're cultural chauvinists. It seems odd that multiculturalists would want to bring chauvinists into their societies.

Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.
#14921049
Sivad wrote:The immigrants aren't multiculturalists, they're cultural chauvinists. It seems odd that multiculturalists would want to bring chauvinists into their


It was a joke about @Albert. He is a Russian immigrant living in Toronto, one of the safest and most multicultural cities in the developed world.

He is literally multiculturalism.
#14921099
Unless Toronto has legal pluralism, they are multi racial, not multi cultural. Time will make the difference very apparent. Even a mongoose and a cobra will appear to get along for a few minutes.
#14921101
One Degree wrote:Unless Toronto has legal pluralism, they are multi racial, not multi cultural. Time will make the difference very apparent. Even a mongoose and a cobra will appear to get along for a few minutes.


No. Legal pluralism is not the same as multiculturalism.

Despite what @Steve_American thinks, that is not the definition of multiculturalism.
#14921106
Pants-of-dog wrote:No. Legal pluralism is not the same as multiculturalism.

Despite what @Steve_American thinks, that is not the definition of multiculturalism.


It is not a definition, it is a requirement for it to exist. It is impossible to be multicultural under the same legal system. It is just a pretense. A legal system is the representation of shared values. You can not be multicultural if you share the same values.
#14921109
One Degree wrote:It is not a definition, it is a requirement for it to exist. It is impossible to be multicultural under the same legal system. It is just a pretense. A legal system is the representation of shared values. You can not be multicultural if you share the same values.


No. None of what you said is correct.

I think you just made all of this stuff up based on your ideas about what multiculturalism is.
#14921145
Pants-of-dog wrote:No. None of what you said is correct.

I think you just made all of this stuff up based on your ideas about what multiculturalism is.


I suppose that is true. I looked at a term that was being misused and applied common sense to it. Just because a definition was invented to mislead people does not prevent me from pointing out it is nonsense. Pretending to be multicultural does not make it multicultural.
#14921148
One Degree wrote:I suppose that is true. I looked at a term that was being misused and applied common sense to it. Just because a definition was invented to mislead people does not prevent me from pointing out it is nonsense. Pretending to be multicultural does not make it multicultural.


Was the term “multiculturalism” invented to mislead people?
#14921165
Pants-of-dog wrote:Then what did you mean when you said “a definition was invented to mislead people”?


The definitions that I recall being given earlier in this thread. Perhaps even by you.
#14921399
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:@Tainari88
I don't think the difficulties in the social sciences are very different to assessing or learning about cultures. In fact, I would argue that most social science research has to take into account culture.

If the idea of cultural relativism is simply that everybody has biases, then it seems rather trivial, although nevertheless the takeaway of many people seems to be that we cannot judge other cultures. I'm mainly arguing against the latter, not least because we do judge our own past culture all the time despite the fact that people have different biases at different times in history.


For me what creates tremendous conflict between cultures and peoples, and nations and governments are a total lack of empathy. There is a sense of using power for or against a group of people without consideration for the needs of the less powerful. It creates tremendous conflict.

I will give you an example that is biblical since I recently saw a great documentary on the history of the Pope in the Catholic church. St Peter is considered the first Pope. Peter means 'rock' and he was crucified upside down, since he did not want to die like the Christ died, since he was 'less' than the Christ. So, the Romans punished him. With an upside down crucifixion. One of the explanations of the biblical scholars and Christian scholars who they interviewed of why the Romans persecuted the early Christians with these terrible punishments was about POWER. 75% of the people in Rome were slaves. Slaves in Roman times were raped, beaten and killed with impunity, they had no rights. No rights to marry, inherit property, have disputes brought up in court, or legal rights. They were like horses, cattle and goats. To be bought and sold like livestock. The majority of the people living in those conditions were told for the first time in their lives that in Christ they were equals. That they mattered, and their eternal souls mattered, that they had rights to dignity and self respect. And many converted. It was a threat to Roman authority that message. It was a power struggle. The Jewish Rabbis resented the Christians for upsetting the political and religious traditional alliances with the established order as well. It was about power and control.

If you study the RC church through the Papal history? They also became corrupted by mundane power, they had teenage popes from vicious, greedy, power hungry families vying for political positions, they had every kind of vile sin happening in the seat of 'spiritual' leadership. Human history is filled with injustices and it has to do with power struggles. The racism, the discrimination, the judgments against foreign cultural traditions, the biases, the prejudices, the need to dehumanize other peoples are all played into the bottom line. Human power struggles. How one copes with human power relationships is your political point of view.

I will never support class systems. Throughout human history all it does is justify exploitation in some form. Because they are women, because they are foreign, because they have darker skin, because they speak a different language, because they are poor and they are poor because they are weak, because they are NOT US. Because, because, because. They are human. They have the same needs. They got to eat, sleep, drink water, have sustenance, shelter, reproduce, love, marry, hate, be angry, be rational, be irrational. They are human.

Accept their common humanity and stop looking for ways to deny them rights that help them get their needs met. In the end all of us are going to be dust anyway.

Multiculturalism only becomes problematic if you think variation and difference is to be inhuman. But it is not. It is about as human as can be.
#14921422
@Tainari88
75% of pollution of Roman empire was not slaves. We have no way of knowing exactly what percentage of population of Roman empire was enslaved, but 75% is unrealistic number.

It is interesting that you had mentioned in previous post between me and you about first sin committed here on earth between Cain and Able. What was the root that drove Cain to murder, it was jealousy. God favoured Abel over Cain and Cain became jealous.

So if we are going to go about this example the root of conflict in humanity is jealousy towards others.
#14921445
Albert wrote:@Tainari88
75% of pollution of Roman empire was not slaves. We have no way of knowing exactly what percentage of population of Roman empire was enslaved, but 75% is unrealistic number.

It is interesting that you had mentioned in previous post between me and you about first sin committed here on earth between Cain and Able. What was the root that drove Cain to murder, it was jealousy. God favoured Abel over Cain and Cain became jealous.

So if we are going to go about this example the root of conflict in humanity is jealousy towards others.


Albert argue with the scholars of religious texts in the series I saw called, "The Pope: the Path to Power" they cite tax forms and other documents from ancient Rome. Rome recorded all the paying taxpayers considered Roman citizens, they had to say to the authorities how many slaves they owned and how much grain and food they grew, how many horses, etc. Argue with them about the stats. Rome had large amounts of slaves. It was the labor behind the great public works.

Look up the religious scholars Albert on the documentary who cite old Roman documents and did the math. Not with me.

Jealousy is responsible for racism?You have a very flimsy argument Albert. You have to realize that the world is old. Lol. Exploiting people is old. Not new. For me barbarism and lack of civilization is not about cannibalism and primitive people who don't have credit cards. For me true barbarism is about exploitation and denying people rights because someone needs to exploit. Can't allow any system that is not capitalist or based on private property. For me any system that is about a class system and it is false in the sense that they insist it is on merit, but it is not based on merit. It is based on who can afford to force others to sell their labor to people who are owners and who have a lot more of the currency of power....money. Money, power and privilege outweighs civilized behavior, equality and justice. For me the people who are against progress for better and more humane form of power negotiations? That civilization loses any real intelligence. If the USA allows a new definition where the powerful have no accountability at all. Are we going to continue to dine in the troth of pig behavior of privileges for the few forever_ It all winds up losing. Study the history of Rome Albert. What happened? Let us talk about 'primitive' behavior...it is about continuing to exploit people who have less power in a class system that favors small elites. That system is unjust and always will be. No one learns from ancient civs who get buried under their own hubris. Nero owed money and wanted to spend money on his agenda. Like any despotic man with power on the brain, he burned the city, then to throw the blame off of his greed and lack of ethics he needed someone to scapegoat for the sufferings of the Roman populace, his solution was, "It is the Christians, stirring up the slaves and changing the power structure that used to work for you!!"

Scapegoating the poor and the ones who can't vote and have the worst jobs in Rome? To throw off the outrage of the ones who are stuck with a bad leader? I wonder what that reminds me of....let me think?
Last edited by Tainari88 on 05 Jun 2018 08:17, edited 1 time in total.
#14921452
Albert wrote:@Tainari88
75% of pollution of Roman empire was not slaves. We have no way of knowing exactly what percentage of population of Roman empire was enslaved, but 75% is unrealistic number.

It is interesting that you had mentioned in previous post between me and you about first sin committed here on earth between Cain and Able. What was the root that drove Cain to murder, it was jealousy. God favoured Abel over Cain and Cain became jealous.

So if we are going to go about this example the root of conflict in humanity is jealousy towards others.

Albert, Tainari88 said "Rome". I think she meant the city, not the whole Empire. Even so, I read somewhere long long ago, that 50% of the people of the city of Rome were slaves and this was why it was decided not to require slaves to be so marked with their clothing. The citizens didn't want the slaves to realize how numerous they were.

I certainly don't use the Bible to prove things about human motivations, but I'm an athiest-christian.
#14921458
Pants-of-dog wrote:
Which defintion, exactly, is the one that was invented to mislead?

I really should let you and One Degree work your disagreement out.
But, I'll jump in.
The definition he says is/was invented to confuse IIRC came from some dictionary.
I was taught years ago that dictionaries meerly reflect current usage in written sources. It is still possible that some group used the word Multiculturalism to include both what I call XYZMC and maintaining cultural identity, etc. in order to confuse the public. And this usage got into the dictionary.

BTW --- this sort of thing is a huge reason that all disciplines have a list of special definitions that they use to be more precise and not get confused. For example, in economics "demand" means that there are people who want to buy [or acquire] something *and* have the money to buy it. Penniless, starving people create little 'economic' demand for food. This sometimes confuses laymen.
#14921767
Pants-of-dog wrote:As far as I can tell, the idea that someone invented a definition of “multiculturalism” in order to mislead is incorrect.


You use the term to apply to Toronto. Everyone in Toronto must obey the same laws. This prevents them from truly being multicultural.
The same people who use this misleading definition of multiculturalism also are anti racists. They speak of black culture being held down by white culture. You speak of the indigenous being held down by white culture. You readily admit it does not work while claiming it does.
Racism is mainly a problem today because it is viewed as different cultures competing. The conflation of race and culture allows you to argue both ways without facing the contradiction. Blacks and indigenous do not face racism if they comply with the majority culture. Racism accusations arise out of them wanting to maintain a culture other than the majority culture.
So you arguing the success of multiculturalism while complaining of racism shows you must be wrong on one or the other.
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