[Beren]

You are completely out of touch with reality and are embarrassing yourself.

Oh really? Are you half-Italian or what?

[noemon]

I don't see the relevance but for the record I do speak Italian. Your chauvinistic non-sense are disgusting. The truth is not "blackmailing Germany", the truth simply is, nor is their solution a "welfare state" paid for by some pretend Northern taxpayer. All these are figments of the imagination of Northern chauvinists who want to be treated as saints while colonising other economies just like perfidious Albion in the past. One would expect that 10-years into this some people would have learned something or at least faced reality for what it is but alas no.

[Beren]

I don't see the relevance but for the record I do speak Italian. Your chauvinistic non-sense are disgusting. The truth is not "blackmailing Germany", the truth simply is, nor is their solution a "welfare state" paid for by some pretend Northern taxpayer. All these are figments of the imagination of Northern chauvinists who want to be treated as saints while colonising other economies. One would expect that 10-years into this some people would have learned something or at least faced reality for what it is but alas no.

I do see the relevance because personal issues do matter to you much.

However, the populists' so-called program or contract is complete bullshit while they're complete nobodies. If Italy really mean this, then they should rather leave the Eurozone as well as the EU and join North Africa altogether.

[noemon]

I do see the relevance because personal issues do matter to you much.

However, the populists' so-called program or contract is complete bullshit while they're complete nobodies. If Italy really mean this, then they should rather leave the Eurozone as well as the EU and join North Africa altogether.

Their economic program is very measured, reasonable and the only solution that exists, there is no other solution and if you can not see this perhaps you are unworthy of participating in these economic discussions because you are merely showcasing your ignorance. An economy cannot survive if people do not have money to buy basic goods. Basic goods not luxury goods. Throwing people into poverty is not a solution that requires less loans, but more loans. These non-sense you peddle have already proven to be malicious so why would anyone carry on peddling them is beyond belief.

[Beren]

So in case of Greece and Italy populism is justified. Is it justified in general too?

[noemon]

This is as embarrassing as the Italian President who did not object to the populist policies of the coalition when it comes to immigrants but he objected to the non-populist common-sense economic policies of the coalition in true colonial officer fashion. You want to round up half-a million migrants? No problem said the Italian president, you want to put a stop to throwing more people into poverty in order to sustain internal demand? Not a chance, here is a former IMF employee for PM that will set you straight.

At this point it has become tragico-comical.

This is so stupid that I cannot fathom the possibility that the Italian President discussed this with anyone in Europe before he went ahead and done it though the past decade has shown that such stupidity is not something that you can put past the Germans and the troika.

[JohnRawls]

So in case of Greece and Italy populism is justified. Is it justified in general too?

What Noemon is trying to say is that the model itself is not working as i mentioned before. The current model can be described in the simplest of terms like this(I am not an economist so bear with me here, my understanding is rather simplistic):

ECB/Many large banks provide loans to ITaly-Greece-Spain --> Italy/Greece/Spain need to follow some special austerity program(Specially greece) --> They still need to pay off the loans and interest --> They are unable to do so because economy is stalling due to austerity --> Take new loans --> Go in a circle.

So it kinda keeps the country/region in a state of constant stagnation and a milk cow for the larger banks because they are getting those interest payments all of the time.

If we manage to move to a full EMU than the situation should change to a different model of sorts:

ECB issues different financial instruments/prints money -> money is provided to the approriate party(Greence, Italy, Spain) -> Interest is covered by ECB and the budget/s -> Paying off the loans becomes a secondary objective --> No need for austerity policies --> Economy will recover at some point.

From the perspective of Noemon, Germany already milked the countries through that interest. But this is not how the Germans will see it in the short term at least. This is basically populists playing from both sides: "They are milking us" and "They are taking our money". The situation is bit more complicated than that. Germany is keeping Greece afloat with the means it has right now. While Greece goverment understands that troika was perhaps one of the painful options to stay afloat to a degree. Other options were as painful.

[noemon]

From the perspective of Noemon, Germany already milked the countries through that interest. But this is not how the Germans will see it in the short term at least. This is basically populists playing from both sides: "They are milking us" and "They are taking our money". The situation is bit more complicated than that. Germany is keeping Greece afloat with the means it has right now. While Greece goverment understands that troika was perhaps one of the painful options to stay afloat to a degree. Other options were as painful.

This is not a matter of perspective, the facts are quite simple. And there is no point in having a conversation about the architecture or changing the EU or making a debt-transfer union or any other non-sense existential questions that merely detract from the very simple facts.

Greece, Italy and the other crisis states asked Europe to provide liquidity during the fiscal crisis because the market(aka as the few banking conglomerates of New York, London & Frankfurt) demanded extortionate interest rates from them. The troika(EU, ECB, IMF) decided to provide those loans at lower interest rates than their banking friends but still substantial interest rates with the conditions of suffocating the economy, like raising taxes and cutting salaries, jobs and pensions. This combo of raising taxes and cutting pensions and salaries has now been done so much and so many times that it has crushed and destroyed any capacity the economy had for revival because people have gone so deep into poverty they can no longer afford basic goods, let alone luxury or tech goods. The alternative to this is to ask the bankers to give the loans at extortionate interest rates(which would mathematically lead to bankruptcy and the isolation it follows) without the conditions attached or to print your own money and become isolated at the level of Iran, Syria and other non-conformist states. You do this you take the entire EU down with you because the whole concept will be broken beyond repair. For some people and their stooges this of course is the end-game.

There is also the other simple alternative that the troica and Germany stop pushing all those conditions which have absolutely nothing to do with saving money and which lead to additional loans prolonging this state of crisis. Their austerity demands have only negative effects on the ability of these countries to pay them back and as such the entire argument is not just wrong but has been proven to be so already and hence why peddling it is so malicious.

This does not require a restructuring of the EU, it does not require any existential questions, this comes mainly straight out of the German finance ministry and its erroneous austerity religion at this point as well as to a lesser degree the IMF.

At this point if you are still peddling austerity to the crisis states you are either: too stupid, too malicious or an agent provocateur and when it is done under the guise of the "poor germans" that just adds insult to injury and turns this into a proper comic.

[Beren]

What Noemon is trying to say is that

You better don't talk for others JR, just tell your opinion - carefully. In my humblest opinion the Germans (+ Dutch and Austrians) may bail out the Italians if they get more control over their finances, however, the utter nonsense bullshit "contract" goes into the trash bin anyway unfortunately.

[noemon]

You better don't talk for others JR, just tell your opinion - carefully. In my humblest opinion the Germans (+ Dutch and Austrians) may bail out the Italians if they get more control over their finances, however, the utter nonsense bullshit contract goes into the trash bin anyway unfortunately.

This is yet another embarrassing statement and just to make it obvious define "control over their finances" when Italy as well as Greece have a primary surplus for many years now, tell us how much should Italian GDP retract before an interest-bearing loan is approved? Then explain why should GDP be reduced and thus increase the Debt/GDP ratio before a new loan is approved further increasing the Debt/GDP ratio? Aside from the German political dominance in the troika which became obvious during the Greek negotiations with Merkel and Schauble assuming personal command of the troika, how is Germany (+ Dutch +Austrians) doing the loans when in fact it is the EU, ECB and IMF with all eurozone states being stakeholders to the EU's fiscal mechanisms? How is the "contract bullshit" when the only unfailing constant in this game is that the crisis states have always paid their monies and their creditors have always received their dues?

From the very beginning of this and at every single round the stooges have said: "look we are giving you money we will never get back", then they get it back with interest and then they say it again pretending to be victims while laughing all the way to the bank while others suffer. Now this has happened at least 10-20 times in the past decade yet the stooges still carry on with unwithering smugness. I guess it makes some people feel more important that what they actually are by posturing as members of the bailout group.

[Varilion]

From an economic perspective Italy resembles what i have seen portrait as a dystopian future in some TV series. Part of the population is employed in some high tech high productive sectors (ranging from mechanical industry to biomedical), the rest of the population surviving of subsidies of various nature. You could think to a public job for some relative, a good pension for grandma or a protected market for your employer (or even its clients). Or carrying on in some doomed business. The situation isn't really different in other countries, but if we can say that in Germany 15% of the population feels left behind; in Italy that's 60%.

So now the Italian massive public debt, 130% GDP today, is however sustained through a current account surplus, achieved by Monti 6-7 years ago.

Monti took some strategic decisions such as reallocating investments from keeping alive unproductive businesses/areas to fostering the economy and development of the most competitive areas/sectors. This together came with new taxes and some cut to the welfare. This policy continued in the years has indeed achieved the goal of stabilizing the economy, but left many in dire economic conditions, especially in some area of the country.

Now, if we move to a political perspective we see that, besides the populists, main parties committed suicide:
-The right is still proposing Berlusconi as its leader, and it's astonishing they even got that 16%
-The left is torn by internal struggles; where many senior members of the party constantly tried to overthrown their party leader (Renzi) and undermine his reform agenda


Someone mentioned Prodi. He did indeed some "reforms" which brought down the Italian debt from +120% of 1995 to 100% of 2007, but the "path" did not prove to be sustainable on the long run. Ok he did his maths before the DOT.com crash, before the Asian tiger crisis... etc... etc... etc...

[Albert]

The political crisis in Italy has impacted the markets today.

Italy’s political crisis jolts markets, rattles all of Europe

Italy’s bond market, the fourth largest in the world, suffered one of its deepest falls since the darkest days of the European debt crisis as the prospect of a resounding populist victory in the next election sinks in with investors.

With the yields on Italian 2-year and 10-year bonds soaring (yields and prices go in the opposite direction), some economists were saying on Tuesday that Italy now faces serious financial and economic difficulties that could rattle Europe to the core. In a note, Kit Juckes of the French bank Société Générale said “we should now call this a crisis.”

By midmorning Tuesday, two days after Italian president Sergio Mattarella scuppered the proposed appointment of an avowed euroskeptic as the finance minister in the then-incoming populist government, Italian 10-year bold yields at one point climbed 67 basis points to 3.33 per cent, taking their one-month climb to a hefty 160 basis points – a rise rarely seen in the bond world (100 basis points equals one percentage point).

The yield rise was the largest single-day increase on record for the 10-year bonds. The yields later fell back somewhat.

The yields on Italian two-year bonds saw a far bigger relative rise. Their yields blasted through 2 per cent for the first time 2013, reaching 2.44 per cent at one point. That was up more than 150 basis points over Monday’s closing price.

......

Looks like capital flight began since May 24th.

[noemon]

Oh dear God, and they gave this guy an EU job:

In an interview with DW news Mr Oettinger said: “My Concerns and expectations are that the coming weeks will show that markets, government bonds and Italy’s economy could be so drastically impacted that they serve as a signal to voters not to vote for populist on the right and left.”

CDU Germans like Oettinger have stoked the bondmarkets against Greece several times in the past in order to fuel the crisis, his comments are beyond disgraceful they are malicious and intend to be heard by the stockmarkets in order to raise Italian bond yields even further and put Italy in a precarious situation.

Talking to a German right-wing college fraternity in 2007, Oettinger said: “We’re in the incredibly beautiful situation to be surrounded only by friends. But the bad thing is: there is no war anymore.” He later said his comments weren’t meant as a call for war, but merely that war can help change how national debt is managed.

Alexis Tsipras had been prime minister of Greece for only a month in early 2015, and was in the middle of sensitive EU bailout negotiations when Oettinger appeared on German radio to tell the world the new Greek government was behaving like “bulls in a china shop.”

High spending, low flags
Oettinger told Bild newspaper in 2011 that the flags of EU countries in breach of EU budget rules should be flown at half-mast outside EU institutions. A cross-party group of 150 MEPs wrote to then European Commission President José Manuel Barroso demanding that the German commissioner retract the comments. Oettinger later claimed he “did not propose this idea, nor did I support it.”

France on trial
Oettinger surprised his new boss Jean-Claude Juncker in November 2014 by penning newspaper articles published in the Financial Times and other newspapers in which he called the French government a repeat criminal offender for breaking EU budget rules.

After the Dutch Jeroen Dijsselbloem this is the new EU disgrace.

And here we come full circle, evidence that Italy's problem is not its finances which are under control but electing the wrong government. People were told that after Greece brings its finances into order, Germany & Europe will stand in solidarity, Greece is in primary surplus since 2011 and yet we are still being told about Greece bringing its finances into order....every time she also happens to elect the wrong government. This is so depressing it's not even funny. Oettinger is acting in concert with the markets and in concert with DW's Riegert Bernd

[Atlantis]

From the very beginning of this and at every single round the stooges have said: "look we are giving you money we will never get back", then they get it back with interest ...

What they don't get back:

- first debt restructuring due to Greek haircut: > 100 bln Euros
- second restructuring due to moratorium on debt repayment
- third restructuring by extending repayment to 30 years or more
- fourth restructuring by reducing interest rate
- fifth restructuring by returning interests to the Greek central bank

By the time Greece will have to start servicing its debts to Euro institutions in about 4 or 5 years, there will be further restructuring. It's not possible to reduce interest below 0, not at junk status, anyways. So, the only way to restructure will be another moratorium on debt service and/or extending repayment to 50 or 100 years. Whatever sum will be paid back in the end, it'll only be worth a fraction of the original 400 to 500 bln.

But yes, Anglo financial institutions, which were instrumental for causing the crisis in the first place, are being paid back in full with handsome interests.

The debt was accumulated during years of deficit spending. While a government with sufficient reserves can sometimes kick-start the economy by stimulus packages, there is no reason to believe that more deficit spending will miraculously produce a different result than in the past. More deficit spending will invariably increase the debt. In fact, the mere prospect of a government increasing deficit spending will immediately increase the debt burden due to increased interest rates, before you can even spend a single penny. The current low interest rate period will not continue indefinitely.

[noemon]

What they don't get back:

- first debt restructuring due to Greek haircut: > 100 bln Euros
- second restructuring due to moratorium on debt repayment
- third restructuring by extending repayment to 30 years or more
- fourth restructuring by reducing interest rate
- fifth restructuring by returning interests to the Greek central bank

I should have expected such obvious lies. Tell me which German taxpayer or company took a loss from the internal Greek haircut that applied to Greeks mainly. Greeks took losses, not the creditors that provided the bailout loans on condition of the 100 bl. haircut on previous liabilities so that the new European creditors start afresh while the Greeks and Greek companies who held Greek national debt took losses, you did not and posting this as evidence that you did is more than shameless especially when the haircut was a condition you imposed in order to provide the bailout loans. None of the other bullshit lies you shamelessly peddle involve losses of any kind to the creditors and were always part of the original bailout agreement. The fifth one you mention is quite hilarious and shows the extent of your hatred. Greece receives back some of her interest payments from the ECB because she is a stakeholder to her own bailout loan as she is also a stakeholder to the ECB as well. She is creditor to her own self via the ESM(European Stability Mechanism). The fact that you consider this as your own gift to Greece is quite telling of the ridiculous arrogance.

By the time Greece will have to start servicing its debts to Euro institutions in about 4 or 5 years, there will be further restructuring. It's not possible to reduce interest below 0, not at junk status, anyways. So, the only way to restructure will be another moratorium on debt service and/or extending repayment to 50 or 100 years. Whatever sum will be paid back in the end, it'll only be worth a fraction of the original 400 to 500 bln.

Hey PoFo you heard it here first, Greece apparently has no debt to service. All this debt you hear about, interest payments and yearly debt-servicing needs that require tranches of cash and bring rounds of drama every 6 months are all figments of your imagination.

The austerity is just tough love from Germany who is trying to teach Greek pensioners lessons on money management. This is in fact what Atlantis(and not just him but many others for sure) actually believes.

But yes, Anglo financial institutions, which were instrumental for causing the crisis in the first place, are being paid back in full with handsome interests.

The debt was accumulated during years of deficit spending. While a government with sufficient reserves can sometimes kick-start the economy by stimulus packages, there is no reason to believe that more deficit spending will miraculously produce a different result than in the past. More deficit spending will invariably increase the debt. In fact, the mere prospect of a government increasing deficit spending will immediately increase the debt burden due to increased interest rates, before you can even spend a single penny. The current low interest rate period will not continue indefinitely.

Please tell me more about how cutting a pensioners pension from 900 to 800 then to 700 then to 600 and eventually to €450 and now there is talk for it going to €400 euros is going to save the country? When people cannot afford basic goods? Please tell us more about how populists in Italy who have already become subject to such demands and are planning to put safeguards for minimum pensions are such dirty animals that deserve to be ridiculed in proper perfidious manner? Please tell us about your glorious victory against the cleaners of the Finance Ministry of Greece which you were arguing for months causing havoc in the bond markets and threatening with expulsion because the Finance Ministry did not want to sack its own internal cleaners and hire a private company to do the cleaning for more money? I remember your excuse which was "why should we let this new Greek government get away with it when we did not let the previous ones, that would be unfair", a "moral hazard". Of course the fact that your months long seize to enforce such a stupid "liberalising" condition and which cost billions of euros due to the havoc it caused in the bond markets and the media for the sake of a few thousand did not detract anyone nor did it cause any German eyebrows to lift. Please tell us how bringing down the pensions from 450 to 400 is going to increase the surplus to 3.5% so you can get your interest payments quicker by a few days and how this is all done to protect your poor taxpayers who are suffering from PTSD after all this Greek stress. And of course who can forget your coup de grace when you literally ordered the closure of Greek banks in order to affect the outcome of a referendum and then 2 days later you announced that "all immigrants in the world are welcome in Germany so long as they can make it there" just so you change the global headlines from a shameful Merkel to Mama Merkel, which in turn caused the immigration crisis, fanning the flames of discord, fucking up European politics irreparably, directly leading to Brexit and so on and forth. Please we are all ears. Sadism is bad for your health, you should drop it. The deficit argument is dead ever since the deficits were tamed, now you have no leg to stand on. This is no longer about any imaginary deficits, this has now become sadistic and your political and media attacks on Italy that are bringing about further rounds of drama in the press and the stockmarkets should seize and desist immediately before they cause the rupture. You know everybody in here and that is literally everybody, myself, the Brits of the forum, some Jews/Israelis even Rei Murasame we have all taken up our responsibilities and have all spoken out against our governments, our national faults, our national mistakes, you however Atlantis have never manned up to anything Germany has done. Ever and that is quite sad.

[Rugoz]

This thread needs more hard facts.

Bond yields and debt servicing costs are at a "historic low".


Employment, while low by international standards, is almost back at pre-crisis levels.


Back at a trade surplus of almost 3%.


Budget deficit at around 2% of GDP.



Not as bad as people seem to think. Of course when the next crisis hits Italy might still be in a better position outside the Eurozone, theoretically (!). In practice Italy hasn't exactly done better with its own currency.

[B0ycey]

This thread needs more hard facts.

Couldn't agree more.

US debt to GDP around 104% with Trump declaring tax cuts and increased spending. Eurozone debt to GDP around 89% with nations looking at reducing spending. The EU collectively is a bigger market.

There does not need to be a Eurozone crisis. It just needs restructuring. It is madness to have a currency union where the liability is not held to one state/organisation. Pumping money into debt just creates instability in those regions that face austerity. Do people seriously expect extending repayments or reducing interest rates will improve public opinion? There is too much wishful thinking. People think bailouts are the answer because they don't want a collective debt burden. But once you joined the Eurozone, you cannot escape such a burden in reality. And you have no control actually. So all that is happening is money goes to waste.

Should Italy require help, the Eurozone leaders need to seriously ask themselves an important question. Do they want to create a debt package with low interest rates and an ever extending repayment plan or just accept a share of the total Eurozone debt and have an external party monitor spending for Eurozone members? At the end of the day, option two is going to happen one day I am almost certain of it. So why wait? Also, we hear so much about banks can't regulate themselves we seem to forget that not all governments can't either. More reason for a complete monetary union and regulators in place to control national spending.

[layman]

you however Atlantis have never manned up to anything Germany has done. Ever and that is quite sad.

He has assured me personally that he is not a German nationalist. On th face of it, all sudo nationalist feelings have been projected on to the eu. At least an idealised version of it. Likewise, all anti imperialist and anti finance feelings are projected against the “empire”.

I admit myself to buying into the lazy southerner story at first. It’s always tempting to feel superior in group think. As you say though, both Greece and Italy are in surplus and have been for some time. That should settle the argument right there as greedy spending was their entire argument.

[Atlantis]

Whoa @noemon, I haden't realized the chip on your shoulder had grown to that dimension. Makes Greek debt look tiny. No wonder you can't form a rational thought.

All the facts I noted are within easy Google search. All German banks with debts in Greece participated in the haircut even though they could have opted out like British banks on the pretext of foreign law. But you are right, Greek banks took the haircut too, which shows that Greek banks did "profit" substantially from Greek debt and not just foreign banks, as you like to pretend. You can't have it both ways.

The Euro institutions that took on Greek debt agreed to a moratorium of debt services until 2022 and an extended repayment schedule of 30 years. At the same time, interest rates where reduced and most national central banks returned interests on other loans to Greece.

If you start servicing your debt in 10 years instead of immediately at a repayment schedule of 30 instead of 10 years and an interest of near 0% instead of 8%, that represents a substantial debt reduction, especially for a creditor at junk status. I don't even know why you bother to deny it since the Greek government has been asking for debt cancellation for years.

Bond yields and debt servicing costs are at a "historic low".

Employment, while low by international standards, is almost back at pre-crisis levels.

Back at a trade surplus of almost 3%.

Budget deficit at around 2% of GDP.

Not as bad as people seem to think.

The debt of 137% of GDP is still worrisome, especially in combination with Italian banking debts. Spanish debt was at 60% before the government had to bail out its banks.

US debt to GDP around 104% ...

And Japanese debt is above 200%. What's the use of comparing apples with pears? Italy is neither the US nor Japan.

There simply is no democratic consensus for debt mutualization. And the political crisis in Italy shows why. Governments will only reign in deficit spending as a result of market pressure. You shelter politicians from the market and they'll start spending like drunken sailors. It's a universal phenomenon.

[noemon]

All the facts I noted are within easy Google search. All German banks with debts in Greece participated in the haircut even though they could have opted out like British banks on the pretext of foreign law. But you are right, Greek banks took the haircut too, which shows that Greek banks did "profit" substantially from Greek debt and not just foreign banks, as you like to pretend. You can't have it both ways.

Tell us which German banks took losses and how much was this loss. Then tell us which of the stated facts which are also easily googlable are untrue:

Tell me which German taxpayer or company took a loss from the internal Greek haircut that applied to Greeks mainly. Greeks took losses, not the creditors that provided the bailout loans on condition of the 100 bl. haircut on previous liabilities so that the new European creditors start afresh while the Greeks and Greek companies who held Greek national debt took losses, you did not and posting this as evidence that you did is more than shameless especially when the haircut was a condition you imposed in order to provide the bailout loans. None of the other bullshit lies you shamelessly peddle involve losses of any kind to the creditors and were always part of the original bailout agreement. The fifth one you mention is quite hilarious and shows the extent of your hatred. Greece receives back some of her interest payments from the ECB because she is a stakeholder to her own bailout loan as she is also a stakeholder to the ECB as well. She is creditor to her own self via the ESM(European Stability Mechanism). The fact that you consider this as your own gift to Greece is quite telling of the ridiculous arrogance.

The Euro institutions that took on Greek debt agreed to a moratorium of debt services until 2022 and an extended repayment schedule of 30 years. At the same time, interest rates where reduced and most national central banks returned interests on other loans to Greece.

If you start servicing your debt in 10 years instead of immediately at a repayment schedule of 30 instead of 10 years and an interest of near 0% instead of 8%, that represents a substantial debt reduction, especially for a creditor at junk status. I don't even know why you bother to deny it since the Greek government has been asking for debt cancellation for years.

You must been having comprehension issues but I have never denied anything of the sort in here. Aside from a few hyperbolic corrections in that the interest rate is not 0% but around 3%, that the moratorium applies only to a specific part of the loan, that owned by the ESM(EFSF) not on the ECB, IMF part you are generally correct, in fact in my previous post I wrote:

None of the other bullshit lies you shamelessly peddle involve losses of any kind to the creditors and were always part of the original bailout agreement.

That is not, nor has it ever been the issue, the issue is about your austerity demands that have crushed people's disposable income and thrown them into poverty and misery. We all know that money is not the issue as it has been proven several times over during Greek/German pecking fights, as it was proven with the cleaners, the banks and several other times, the issue is about control, sadistic control at this point.
Somehow you all receive some satisfaction if Greek pensioners receive 400 a month and are unable to buy toilet paper. And that is the uber sad part. Now you want to do the same to Italy when there is already the Greek experience totally unfazed by such an experience, Brexit and reality. In August Greece is coming out of the bailout program, which means she will no longer be under your thumb and now you are engineering shit with Italy for no economic reason whatsoever throwing the bondmarkets off balance and raising our spreads once again and you even have Germans serving in the EU like Oettinger participating in the bond craze. You are predictable and relentless and someone in this fucking continent should stand up to you before you turn it into a graveyard again.