[Beren]

And Japanese debt is above 200%. What's the use of comparing apples with pears? Italy is neither the US nor Japan.

According to Rugoz's charts it's more like Hungary actually. Hungary has lower GDP/capita and productivity though, its debt/GDP is almost the half as well. Maybe that's why Moody's warned that they may downgrade Italy to Baa3, just above junk, where Hungary is.

[hartmut]

..The range of allowed opinions with respect to the EU has definitely narrowed.
..

I do assume with great confidence, that neither your "opinion" is not "narrowed", no anybody else's.
And you shouldn't mix up therms to achieve own ends.
So called "opinion"settles more easily in the realm of wishes and fantasies,
while responsibility within the frame of reality was, and will be, more narrowed.

https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/gove ... bond-yield
https://www.economist.com/europe/2018/0 ... r-election

[Ter]

Democracy in the EU? Only when convenient for Brussels



The European Union fancies as a champion of ‘democracy,’ but its action show this doesn’t cover dissenting views, whether from an Eurosceptic party in Italy, austerity-hating Greeks, or any folks voting against its grand plans.

Concerns about Europe’s disregard for the opinions of normal, non-technocrat, non-banker people have bubbled to the surface of social media after Italy’s recent close-call with the near-formation of a government with a clear democratic mandate. But the EU’s glaring democracy deficit has been an inconvenient characteristic of the bloc since its founding.
The Lisbon Treaty: Because only important people need to approve treaties

Once upon a time – in 2004, to be exact – there was something called the Constitution for Europe. This proud document was meant to codify all the wonderful things that the European Union stood for: human dignity, free markets, the rule of law and democracy. Although it was enthusiastically agreed upon and signed by EU bigwigs, the constitution still required rubber-stamp ratification from each member state.

Much to the chagrin of Europe’s visionary leaders, voters in France and the Netherlands rejected this sacred document during a series of referenda held across Europe in 2015. In a refreshingly blunt speech given after the failed Dutch referendum, then-prime minister Jan Peter Balkenende nonchalantly remarked: "The idea of Europe has lived for the politicians, but not the Dutch people. That will have to change."

And change it did. Sort of.

After a great deal of soul searching, Europe’s top minds came up with an ingenious way to ensure that there would be no more democratic roadblocks interfering with their grand plans for Europe: The constitution would simply be rebranded as the Treaty of Lisbon – and this time, no referendums. Instead, the treaty would be ratified by parliamentary processes.

Actually, there was one country which foolishly allowed its citizenry to vote on the Lisbon Treaty – but luckily this error of judgment was quickly rectified. In a 2008 referendum, Irish voters rejected the treaty by a majority of 53 percent. Not to be dissuaded by the will of the people, Ireland held another referendum on the treaty a year later – and this time the plebes voted the 'correct' way.

The Lisbon Treaty’s ultimate triumph over the annoying will of the European people would be the first among many victories against the EU’s arch nemesis – the democratic referendum.
Greeks vote against EU-imposed austerity, Brussels laughs and laughs

In July 2015, the Greek people voted decisively to reject harsh austerity policies sought by the EU and other global institutions in exchange for modest debt relief and a multi-billion-euro bailout.

But the Greek government, strong-armed by Germany and the European Central Bank, ultimately ignored the referendum results, and swiftly introduced tough austerity measures described as necessary in order to thwart economic collapse.

Commenting on the brazen affront to basic democratic principles, former speaker of the Greek Parliament Zoe Konstantopoulou said that the rubbished referendum showed how “Europe has steadily departed from its principal founding goals, democracy, human rights and freedoms and the prosperity of its people and its societies.”
Brexit: Making an example of EU party-poopers

In a 2016 referendum, which has since created incalculable reams of breathless headlines, Britain voted to leave the European Union in clear violation of Brussels’ zero-tolerance policy for anything that it doesn’t like.

Top EU officials wasted no time in calling the democratic result “stupid” and have even urged British youth to reverse the decision.

Although the UK is scheduled to depart from the EU in March, 2019, Brussels has shown little enthusiasm for the necessary negotiations and agreements to ensure an orderly transition. True to form, some within Britain’s political elite are openly campaigning to prevent Brexit from taking place. Former British prime minister Tony Blair has called for a second referendum, and has urged Brussels to do all it can to persuade the UK to remain in the bloc.


George Soros delves back into British politics by backing 2nd Brexit referendum bid

Aside from its bureaucratic foot-dragging and patronizing comments, Brussels has also cynically stoked fears about the economic and social consequences of Brexit. This tactic has been especially visible in the bloc’s dealings with Dublin.

“What looks like Brussels love is really an expedient exploitation of Irish concerns to try to weaken British democracy,” Brendan O’Neill, editor of Spiked Online, noted last year. “No one in Britain wants the border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland to ossify. No one’s arguing for that. Rather, this fear of a firmer border has been ramped up by Brussels to paint Brexit as a harbinger of division.”

Recalling how pro-EU media had accused the Irish of being “treacherous” children who had “spat in the soup” after they voted against the Lisbon Treaty in 2008, O’Neill observed: “EUphiles suddenly love Ireland for one reason only: they see you as a potential truncheon against Brexit.”
Spain bludgeons peaceful independence movement, EU predictably silent

In October 2017, Catalonia held an independence referendum which had been declared illegal by Spain’s constitutional court. Organisers said 90 percent of voters backed independence, but turnout was less than 45 percent. Many voters who did go to the polls were greeted with police batons and arrests. More than 400 Catalans were reportedly injured as police forcibly removed voters from polling stations.

After Catalonia’s parliament honored the result (a massive EU no-no), Madrid dissolved the region’s parliament, sacked its leaders and called a snap election.

Usually eager to issue sanctimonious statements, Brussels was tellingly tight-lipped about the troubling human rights situation which unfolded in Catalonia. After all, the referendum was an “internal Spanish matter,” so why would the EU get involved?

Quitaly?

We’ve now reached the present day, and the EU’s complicated relationship with democracy continues to manifest itself in new, even surprising ways. This week, Italy’s new government was essentially blocked from assuming power, after president Sergio Mattarella refused to approve the new minister of economy, arguing that his Eurosceptic views could endanger Italy’s eternal commitment to the euro. The move – described by analysts and blatantly unconstitutional – was followed by Mattarella’s appointment of a former IMF director as interim prime minister, who will now be charged with forming a different, more responsible government.

“They are with the bankers and the powerful ones. We are with the Italian people," Matteo Salvini, the leader of Lega Nord, tweeted on Monday, shortly after Mattarella announced his decision to make ex-IMF head Carlo Cottarelli interim prime minister. The defiant message was accompanied by a photograph showing Mattarella, Cottarelli, former prime minister Matteo Renzi, and German Chancellor Angela Merkel and President Mattarella. Salvini is pictured below, rallying a crowd.

There will almost certainly be new elections in the coming months, and the Euroskeptic parties, now more galvanized than ever, will likely turn parliamentary elections into a plebiscite on Italy’s relationship with the EU. Long-overdue karma for Brussels? Perhaps.

https://www.rt.com/news/428275-eu-refer ... -brussels/

A nice little overview of how big the "democratic deficit" is.
By the way, I have never understood why the new Greek Governement capitulated for the blackmail of Brussels and Germany. They should have stood firm in my opinion. The forced austerity is indeed a disaster for the common people in Greece.
Now let's see what happens in Italy.

[Varilion]

That article is a cocktail of BS... let me just highlight what is relevant for this discussion:

We’ve now reached the present day, and the EU’s complicated relationship with democracy continues to manifest itself in new, even surprising ways. This week, Italy’s new government was essentially blocked from assuming power, after president Sergio Mattarella refused to approve the new minister of economy, arguing that his Eurosceptic views could endanger Italy’s eternal commitment to the euro. The move – described by analysts and blatantly unconstitutional– was followed by Mattarella’s appointment of a former IMF director as interim prime minister, who will now be charged with forming a different, more responsible government.

Which analysts? Those serving beer in neonazi pubs? That's a lie. Mattarella actions are perfectly following the both text of the constitution and the praxis. Despite the fact that someone may not like it, democracies, true democracies, foresee checks and balances...the only question is whether the actions of Mattarella are politically opportune or not.

[Ter]

That article is a cocktail of BS...

I respectfully disagree with your statement.
We have all lived through the events reported in the article and they are narrated pretty objectively.
The EU is not democratic at all, there are so many examples.

As for what happened in Italy, you are correct to say t was legal but you should also agree that it was a very stupid move by the Italian President.
And it would also be legal to impeach the old geezer and to refuse to work together with that IMF stooge.

[Rugoz]

I respectfully disagree with your statement.
We have all lived through the events reported in the article and they are narrated pretty objectively.
The EU is not democratic at all, there are so many examples.

The article is crap.

If member states ignore referendum results, that's their business. Last time I checked none of them are direct democracies. Moreover, the decision of an individual member state is one of 28. Just because the Greeks voted against austerity doesn't mean Northern Europeans will all bend over and pay.

[Ter]

If member states ignore referendum results, that's their business.

Sure. And are you so naive to think Brussels is not involved in those decisions?

Moreover, the decision of an individual member state is one of 28.

Yes, and that is why they are trying to avoid referendums anywhere in the EU because they know the people are against whatever Brussels want.
Referendums haven't gone the EU way in a long long time.

[noemon]

Just because the Greeks voted against austerity doesn't mean Northern Europeans will all bend over and pay.

This does not follow. However it has been convenient to Germans to pretend that it does. In fact it can be argued that the opposite is true, the more austerity the more loans we all collectively have to issue as the economy nosedives and is unable to cover its expenses. In fact you have argued as much several times in here if I remember correctly.

Second, selling a loan with interest is not equivalent to "bending over and paying". Only supremacists use this language. And not only this but what is this supremacist non-sense about "Northern Europeans"? Germany has provided 65 billion in loans, France 45 billion, Italy 40 billion, Spain 35 billion, then follow the Netherlands with 13 bil. and then Belgium with 7.5 bil. Mediterranean Europe has provided the bulk of the loans.

You are also aware that the problem with Italy is not her finances but voting for the wrong parties. And the problem with the EU is not the EU but the German dominance the past decade and that is not because they are "rich & powerful" but because there is a deficit of leaders in other European countries and because Merkel has subsumed the Social Democrats and made them her own tail giving her wiggle room to do as she and Schauble please without any opposition since 2005 which is about as long as Putin and Erdogan. Germany has been on a single party/no opposition system for about 15 years already and counting.

[Beren]

That article is a cocktail of BS... let me just highlight what is relevant for this discussion:

Which analysts? Those serving beer in neonazi pubs? That's a lie. Mattarella actions are perfectly following the both text of the constitution and the praxis. Despite the fact that someone may not like it, democracies, true democracies, foresee checks and balances...the only question is whether the actions of Mattarella are politically opportune or not.

If Mattarella were a real politician he'd have given the Conte cabinet a green light and let the chips fall where they may. How long would they have lasted? He can't hold them back forever. They'll come back stronger and Italy's troubles will deepen.

[Rugoz]

Sure. And are you so naive to think Brussels is not involved in those decisions?

What institution are you referring to with "Brussels"? The most important ones (European Council and Council of the European Union) are made up of member states.

In any case, given there's no culture of referendums in member states and at the EU level I doubt there's much tolerance for strict adherence. Though I doubt anyone could have pressured France for example into accepting the new constitution.

Yes, and that is why they are trying to avoid referendums anywhere in the EU because they know the people are against whatever Brussels want. Referendums haven't gone the EU way in a long long time.

To be fair, unanimous decision making is already hard enough with governments of member states. With referendums it would take forever. So one would probably have to give up unanimity for many decisions. But again, member states do not even tolerate referendums on domestic issues.

Second, selling a loan with interest is not equivalent to "bending over and paying".

Ignore the choice of words. The point is that they have to agree.

[noemon]

Ignore the choice of words. The point is that they have to agree.

The point is that ever since the beginning this has been framed in that sort of language and that has galvanised people into certain corners. Anti-Greek Germans still pretend to be doing charity. The particular point here is that at the time of the referendum they had already agreed to provide these loans, they were not discussing about money but about austerity cuts, the austerity would not give them their money back quicker but later and after the referendum they actually increased the loan and the cuts because of the closure of the banks the ECB ordered!! Their money is not exactly theirs(as in Germany's) as even Greece herself is part of the bailout to herself through the ESM and as we have seen the large majority of the money is provided by France, Spain and Italy. This architecture makes it impossible for a default as we all know and yet only the Germans(with their Dutch and other co-right-wing minions) pretend as much in order to sustain their miserable austerity religion.

[Beren]

Back to Mattarella a bit, as a good Catholic he should take lessons from Pilate.

When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"

When the populists come back and claim power again, he should give them what they want and resign.

[Varilion]

I think that Mattarella was upset by these "new barbarians" attempt to force him to name their man without discussions. The fact that you win the election doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want.

Also in 1994 Berlusconi announced that he was now the "CEO of Italy Inc."; soon he had to realize that it wasn't like that, and 6 months after he was already out of office.

Now it's the turn of 5-Stars to learn how democracy works; and by the way, after one week of crying, it seems that they are back at the negotiation table...

[noemon]

I think that Mattarella was upset by these "new barbarians" attempt to force him to name their man without discussions. The fact that you win the election doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want.

It actually does, all over Europe Presidents like Monarchs are purely ceremonial, parties win elections they form governments and the presidents make them take an oath, Presidents do not take it upon themselves to appoint their own government if they don't like the election result(even though the legally can). I do not like these people either and would much prefer someone like Renzi but my personal feelings are irrelevant to the democratic process. He has done a monumental mistake and of course they will be back at the table, that is part of the democratic process, they control the largest share in parliament them being on the table is integral. They will also appoint the next president when his term is up(or if he gets impeached) and if their own next president does not like their opponents and appoints someone else for government, then you have entered into a vicious cycle that will mathematically lead to the destruction of the Republic in its current form at least for sure.

[noemon]

Seems like technocrat government is not happening and populist parties will form their government after all.

Giuseppe Conte will be sworn in as Italy’s prime minister after accepting a role in the country’s new populist government.

The president's office announced on Thursday that law professor Mr Conte had accepted the role and would be sworn in on Friday afternoon with cabinet ministers.

Mr Conte read the list of ministers and told reporters in a brief statement: “We will work with determination to improve the quality of life of all Italians.”

The announcement demonstrated that president Sergio Mattarella has accepted the cabinet chosen by the anti-establishment Five Star Movement and League parties at their second attempt of forming a government.

Mr Mattarella last week vetoed the populists’ original choice for finance minister, the Eurosceptic professor Paolo Savona, threatening to scupper any coalition deal.

Five Star leader Luigi Di Maio and League head Matteo Salvini struck a compromise earlier on Thursday that led the president to postpone attempts to put an interim government in place.

Mr Salvini will serve as the interior minister in Mr Conte’s cabinet, while Mr Di Maio will take over the industry ministry.

Mr Savona will be in government, but as European affairs minister, a less powerful role but one which will still allow him to negotiate with Brussels and speak on EU issues.

Giovanni Tria is now expected to be handed the key economy job in place of Mr Savona, who advocates the formation of a “plan B” to prepare the country’s exit from the eurozone.

Mr Tria, although critical of the European Union’s economic governance, has not touted the possibility of the country ditching the euro.

In recent articles he has called for a change in the EU’s fiscal rules to allow public investments to help growth and, like many mainstream economists, has criticised Germany’s persistently large current account surplus.

Global financial markets plunged last week as a second election dominated by a debate on Italy’s future in the single currency seemed likely to take place.

Five Star and the League – formally known as the Northern League – emerged as the two largest parties following the country’s general election in March, although neither were able to secure a majority.

In a joint programme announced under initial coalition talks, the parties revealed plans to scrap austerity measures and repatriate migrants, putting them on a collision course with Brussels.

The League, a right-wing anti-migrant populist party with its support mostly concentrated in the north, has said it wants to leave the eurozone as soon as politically feasible.

Five Star, founded by comedian Beppe Grillo, holds more ambiguous political stances and has rowed back in recent months on some of its more eurosceptic rhetoric.

Salvini the anti-immigrant who plans mass deportations gets the post as well.

[Beren]

That's all they needed to form a government? Melodrama italiano.

[Albert]

Perhaps a backroom deal was struck between EU and Italian populist government.

[skinster]

With his choice of prime minister, Italy’s president has gifted the far right
Sergio Mattarella’s defence of the status quo has ensured the success of racist and populist policies

Italy should be doing well. Unlike Britain, it exports considerably more to the rest of the world than it imports, while its government spends less (excluding interest payments) than the taxes it receives. And yet Italy is stagnating, its population in a state of revolt following two lost decades.

While it is true that Italy is in serious need of reforms, those who blame the stagnation on domestic inefficiencies and corruption must explain why Italy grew so fast throughout the postwar period until it entered the eurozone. Was its government and polity more efficient and virtuous in the 1970s and 1980s? Hardly.

The singular reason for Italy’s woes is its membership of a terribly designed monetary union, the eurozone, in which the Italian economy cannot breathe and which consecutive German governments refuse to reform.

In 2015 the Greek people elected a progressive, Europeanist government with a mandate to demand a new deal within the eurozone. In the space of six months, under the guidance of the German government, the European Union and its central bank crushed us. A few months later, I was asked by the Italian daily newspaper Corriere della Sera if I thought European democracy was at risk. I answered: “Greece surrendered but it was Europe’s democracy that was mortally wounded. Unless Europeans realise that their economy is run by unelected and unaccountable pseudo-technocrats, committing one gross error after another, our democracy will remain a figment of our collective imagination.”

Since then, the pro-establishment government of Italy’s Democratic party implemented, one after the other, the policies that the unelected bureaucrats of the EU demanded. The result was more stagnation. And so, in March, a national election delivered an absolute parliamentary majority to two anti-establishment parties which, despite their differences, shared doubts about Italy’s eurozone membership and a hostility to migrants. It was the bitter harvest of absent prospects and withering hope.

After a few weeks of the kind of post-election horse-trading common in countries like Italy and Germany, the Five Star Movement and League leaders Luigi Di Maio and Matteo Salvini struck a deal to form a government. Alas, President Sergio Mattarella used the powers bestowed upon him by the Italian constitution to prevent the formation of that government and, instead, handed the mandate to a technocrat, a former IMF employee who stands no chance of a vote of confidence in parliament.

Had Mattarella refused Salvini the post of interior minister, outraged by his promise to expel 500,000 migrants from Italy, I would be compelled to support him. But, no, the president had no such qualms. Not even for a moment did he consider vetoing the idea of a European country deploying its security forces to round up hundreds of thousands of people, cage them, and force them into trains, buses and ferries before sending them goodness knows where.

No, Mattarella chose to clash with an absolute majority of lawmakers for another reason: his disapproval of the finance minister designate. Why? Because the said gentleman, while fully qualified for the job, and despite his declaration that he would abide by the EU’s rules, had in the past expressed doubts about the eurozone’s architecture and has favoured a plan of EU exit just in case it was needed. It was as if Mattarella declared that reasonableness from a prospective finance minister constitutes grounds for his or her exclusion from the post.

What is so striking is that there is no thinking economist anywhere in the world who does not share concern about the eurozone’s faulty architecture. No prudent finance minister would neglect to develop a plan for euro exit. Indeed, I have it on good authority that the German finance ministry, the European Central Bank and every major bank and corporation have plans in place for the possible exit from the eurozone of Italy, even of Germany. Is Mattarella telling us that the Italian finance minister is banned from thinking of such a plan?

Beyond his moral failure to oppose the League’s industrial-scale misanthropy, the president has made a major tactical blunder: he fell right into Salvini’s trap. The formation of another “technical” government, under a former IMF apparatchik, is a fantastic gift to Salvini’s party.

Salvini is secretly salivating at the thought of another election – one that he will fight not as the misanthropic, divisive populist that he is, but as the defender of democracy against the Deep Establishment. He has already scaled the moral high ground with the stirring words: “Italy is not a colony, we are not slaves of the Germans, the French, the spread or finance.”

If Mattarella takes solace from the fact that previous Italian presidents managed to put in place technical governments that did the establishment’s job (so “successfully” that the country’s political centre imploded), he is very badly mistaken. This time around he, unlike his predecessors, has no parliamentary majority to pass a budget or indeed to lend his chosen government a vote of confidence. Thus, the president is forced to call fresh elections that, courtesy of his moral drift and tactical blunder, will return an even stronger majority for Italy’s xenophobic political forces, possibly in alliance with the enfeebled Forza Italia of Silvio Berlusconi.

And then what, President Mattarella?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-populist

[Clangeddin]

I voted for Movimento 5 Stelle and the new premier (Giuseppe Conte) is an expression of said party, however, I am worried.
I don't really trust Lega Nord and something tells me they'll boycott this government from within and try lay the blame on M5S and capitalize for the next elections to remake the center-right government with Berlusconi.

I hope to be proven wrong, this country needs a serious fight against Fiscal Evasion, Corruption and Massive Youth Unemploment (starting with lowering the retirement age requirements, perhaps, instead of raising them). On top of that what we'd really need are drastic reform in our Justice System, which is probably the biggest joke of all justice systems in "civilized" countries.
What we'd also need would be a strategic reform in our Energy and Transports sector to reduce our dependancy on importing oil and fuel fossils from other countries.

After all of the above is done, perhaps we can start threatening the EU with an exit if they don't change their tone, otherwise we'll look like the fool who wants to slay a Dragon, but is afraid of a Tiger.

[Beren]

I don't really trust Lega Nord and something tells me they'll boycott this government from within and try lay the blame on M5S and capitalize for the next elections to remake the center-right government with Berlusconi.

I'm sure there will be another crisis and snap elections called as soon as Salvini feels he has capitalised enough on being interior minister to become prime minister.