[Beren]

I wouldn't be because mechanisms would be implemented to prevent it, overnight.

It still doesn't really seem a realistic scenario to me, but whatever...

It's rather interesting that (Surprise! Surprise!) Lega Nord's Salvini ("The Captain" ) is also a nobody.

Matteo Salvini was born in Milan in 1973, the son of a business executive and a housewife. Salvini studied at the classical lyceum Alessandro Manzoni of Milan and later attended the University of Milan studying Historical Science; however, he never graduated.

In his youth Salvini became a member of the left-wing social centre Leoncavallo, which strongly influenced his political orientation before becoming the main representative of the right-wing faction of Northern League, the Padanian party.

And that's all about his "Early life". Never graduating from college seems like a prerequisite for anti-establishment leaders in Italy.

It was a coalition of nobodies.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

It is a bit of a complicated situation for Italy. Their economy hasn't recovered yet from the crysis and their debt burden is quite high. So they rely on EU too much(Debt). They can't really sever their ties to the EU because we are keeping them afloat. So right now Italy and EU are stuck in this situation where EU is worried about Italian banking sector and economy and Italy understands that we are keeping them afloat to a large degree so eurosceptics are generally not welcome from from the side of the ruling elite.

This whole situation gave a Rise to the "anti-European" parties. That along with the immigrant crysis as usually. Both problems are more or less self-inflicted problems of the EU. One is because the EMU is not ready to handle problems such as Italy and even Greece. Only choice is Troika which everybody understands is not a very good choice unless you absolutely must do it. The Second problem was mainly created by Merkel and Germany.

As for a way out, Macron shows some promise in his leadership qualities. We shall see. There is no clear way of getting out of this issue fast. The possible solutions are:
1) Wait for the italian economy to recover.
2) Troika.
3) We need to finish EMU creation and shoulder the total European Debt through the EU. (This is highly unethical in the short run but the only solution to move us forward and to a positive outcome in the long run)

I'm aware of the situation in Italy. However, since the Austrian president has previously expressed a similar sentiment, i.e. that he wouldn't allow people who "jeopardise Austria's prosperity" to form a government, I think what I said still holds.

A fourth option should be an orderly exit from the eurozone.

I've seen people argue that Savona's appointment was evidence of an attempt to take Italy out of the euro by the backdoor or something to that effect.

[Potemkin]

There is no point continuing to put bandaids over this any longer. All it does is create tensions in regions that suffer from austerity, causing anti EU feelings in those regions. The only solution to the Euro problem is to solidify the monetary union completely. And that would include liabilities to go directly to ECB and the responsibility to fall onto all member states, not just the few. Until this happens you always have a ticking time bomb and a fear the Eurozone will collapse on itself at any time. And to me, this is the only solution should Italy's debt get too big anyway. So why wait?

Do you really think the German taxpayers will cheerfully subsidise the lifestyle of those Italian and Greek layabouts into the indefinite future?

[Varilion]

Savona has been linked to the so called "Plan B", which apparently he presented during a talk in 2015. This "Plan B" (where Plan A would be debt mutualization) is a secret, well prepared by few key people, overnight leaving of the eurozone. Appears then clear why the President doesn't want to have Savona minister, regardless what he says now, since then he said that you have to "calm" everyone and then take action in secret. Who can believe him now if he says that he won't leave the EZ? Even if he truly means it...

However, as said before, the goal of Lega, the big sponsor of Savona has always been to go to an early vote... even 5-stars leaders seem to have realized it now.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Savona has been linked to the so called "Plan B", which apparently he presented during a talk in 2015. This "Plan B" (where Plan A would be debt mutualization) is a secret, well prepared by few key people, overnight leaving of the eurozone. Appears then clear why the President doesn't want to have Savona minister, regardless what he says now, since then he said that you have to "calm" everyone and then take action in secret. Who can believe him now if he says that he won't leave the EZ? Even if he truly means it...

Since the government would have to be complicit in this, do people really believe that both parties want to implement this secret plan despite stating the opposite?

However, as said before, the goal of Lega, the big sponsor of Savona has always been to go to an early vote... even 5-stars leaders seem to have realized it now.

There might be something to this. I've read their popularity has gone up since the election, although things can obviously change quickly.

[JohnRawls]

Do you really think the German taxpayers will cheerfully subsidise the lifestyle of those Italian and Greek layabouts into the indefinite future?

As i said, it is unethical in the short term. But we have no alternative in the long term. American economic approach regarding this is far superior to what we have in Europe right now.

[Albert]

So basically Sergio Mattarella is stalling the government. I guess it is fair to assume he is pro-EU.

[Potemkin]

As i said, it is unethical in the short term. But we have no alternative in the long term. American economic approach regarding this is far superior to what we have in Europe right now.

Are the German taxpayers going to be asked what they think of this, JohnRawls? Or will you just present them with a fait accompli?

[Albert]

The Fourth Reich must prevail! It has to be established!

[Beren]

Do you really think the German taxpayers will cheerfully subsidise the lifestyle of those Italian and Greek layabouts into the indefinite future?

I really wonder whether how the Germans will feel when they realise what's going on in Italy and who M5S and Lega Nord are. And they will have to realise it because Italy will keep making the news.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

As i said, it is unethical in the short term. But we have no alternative in the long term. American economic approach regarding this is far superior to what we have in Europe right now.

It would be unethical and not only in the short term, but that has never stopped anyone if the circumstances demand it or can be construed to demand it. I agree that's what the eurozone will ultimately have to do unless it breaks up or lets countries exit. People in northern/central Europe have been and are still deluding themselves about this. Delusions are a common feature among people in the member states in general, while the EU forges ahead incrementally to get where it is supposed to go.

Frankly, it's difficult to take EU proponents' charges against populists seriously, when the EU itself is predominantly held together by pretense such as the assurance that the eurozone will never be a transfer or debt union and fear of economic consequences and loss of power, i.e. dishonesty and appeal to base instincts are fundamentally important to its continued existence.

Of course the diverging opinions on the eurozone are also evidence that the rest of the world, and the anglosphere in particular, is wrong about Germany's intentions and role in the EU.

[Albert]

It appears the whole EU project was build on deception of the public of its true intentions. The end vision of EU politicians in charge is a United States of Europe. Without nationalism or nationhood (which they fanatically blame for the woes Europe suffered during WWII). Also judging by their actions they want demographic change in Europe, they literally want Europe to be populated by people from all over the world of all creed and colours. I'm beginning to suspect that the whole illegal immigration happening across the Mediterranean right now is purposely allowed by EU officials.

This whole nightmare vision is by that which the EU officials are driven, except they do not see it as a nightmare but a glorious grand future. They therefore realize if they reveal their true design it will be rejected by the general public, hence they keep it secret. I obviously suspect this, I understand this borderlines conspiracy, but judging by that which has been happening I would not be totally surprised if this is true.

All in all we are dealing with fanatics and radicals who are in charge of EU project and in western governments in general.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

It appears the whole EU project was build on deception of the public of its true intentions. The end vision of EU politicians in charge is a United States of Europe. Without nationalism or nationhood (which they fanatically blame for the woes Europe suffered during WWII). Also judging by their actions they want demographic change in Europe, they literally want Europe to be populated by people from all over the world of all creed and colours. I'm beginning to suspect that the whole illegal immigration happening across the Mediterranean right now is purposely allowed by EU officials.

Not even that is entirely clear in my opinion. A United States of Europe would need to be based on some form of nationalism/nationhood and there's nothing to suggest that our current leadership is very much interested in that. See also references to a Mediterranean Union (although we haven't heard much about this recently). In fact, the only argument for the EU to be an exclusive club for Europeans only is an argument that appeals to a kind of nationhood. The advantages of the EU, as EU proponents see them, surely hold for any country that can comply with the membership criteria and to those the EU would bring peace, prosperity and democratic values. Who would want to deny those advantages to non-Europeans? That's right, only a racist nationalist would.

This whole nightmare vision is by that which the EU officials are driven, except they do not see it as a nightmare but a glorious grand future. They therefore realize if they reveal their true design it will be rejected by the general public, hence they keep it secret. I obviously suspect this, I understand this borderlines conspiracy, but judging by that which has been happening I would not be totally surprised if this is true.

They haven't really kept it secret though. "Ever more integration" is right out in the open for everybody to read. Of course, despite this there's lots of room to argue that this won't happen and if it happens it will be voluntary.

All in all we are dealing with fanatics and radicals who are in charge of EU project and in western governments in general.

Most of them are nihilist drones and a common feature of them is that they have lost faith in western civilisation.

Edit:

[B0ycey]

Do you really think the German taxpayers will cheerfully subsidise the lifestyle of those Italian and Greek layabouts into the indefinite future?

If the alternative was the meltdown of the Eurozone, for sure. After all, that would affect German pockets more.

It wouldn't affect Germany as much as you think to have a full monetary union btw. It would be superficial. And of course would be another cog in the wheel for a united Europe. The only difference from today would be they would be part liable to a debt that wasn't theirs. An Italian bailout would require Germany giving up their own money to them and hoping that Italy can afford to pay them back. So there is a financial risk for Germany regardless whatever choice is made - so the trokia option is still bandaiding until the next crisis, which will happen as Europe is a union of unequal economies.

Also, currently Italy needs to borrow at high interests. That would stop. So there is savings. They would also be responsible for their budgets and spendings. They don't have the luxury of printing their own currency so would be constrained to what they can afford. And naturally a full monetary union would need rules to be adhered to and penalties if they are not. Borrowing would be a factor to those rules. So Italy, Greece and Germany would be forced to live by their means. So in the end, nothing changes for Germany, but Italy would need to change their spendings to align with what they can generate (ie light austerity). Which is a damn sight better than borrowing large sums of money from their neighbours and the extreme austerity measures they would face to borrow that money.

So it is indeed short term pain for long term gain.

[Atlantis]

It appears the whole EU project was build on deception of the public of its true intentions. The end vision of EU politicians in charge is a United States of Europe. Without nationalism or nationhood.

On the contrary, Albert. The EU is the only thing that protects the sovereignty of the nation state from imperialism. That's why Anglo imperialists like you want to destroy the EU. You want the Anglo financial empire to have free reign for sucking the blood out off Europe.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel criticized bankers who “walked off” with money during the financial crisis and suggested they share the blame for populism that’s roiling politics in countries such as Italy.

Using language reminiscent of her rhetoric at the peak of Europe’s debt crisis, Merkel combined her slap at bankers with a warning to Italian policy makers to “tackle the problems and solve them.”

“We saw it during the international financial crisis: Many of the bankers who walked off with lots and lots of money and never had to work again in their life are partly responsible for millions of people becoming unemployed,” Merkel said on a panel at the Global Solutions Summit in Berlin on Monday. “People naturally ask themselves whether that’s fair.”

[Potemkin]

On the contrary, Albert. The EU is the only thing that protects the sovereignty of the nation state from imperialism. That's why Anglo imperialists like you want to destroy the EU. You want the Anglo financial empire to have free reign for sucking the blood out off Europe.

You hear that Albert? You're an Anglo imperialist. Welcome to the club! This must be a proud day for you....

[Beren]

Just imagine when all this appears and discussed in the German press and media:

What do populist parties plan for Italy?

Italy was ravaged by the 2008 financial crisis that left the economy some 6% smaller and three million more people in poverty.

The answer for The League and Five Star is to move Italians out of poverty. But their policies will cost tens of billions of euros, for a country with the second biggest public debt in the EU after Greece. It stands at 132% of national output.

Guaranteed income for the poor

Poor families will get a €780 (£682; $919) basic monthly income, provided recipients actively seek work, the parties say.

It is a popular idea but one that will cost an estimated €17bn to implement.

Two income tax rates

Its most expensive policy is the idea of two "flat tax" rates set at 15% and 20%.

Families would receive a €3,000 annual tax deduction based on household income. Sales and excise tax increases next year, worth €12.5bn, will be scrapped.

The 58-page joint pact, or "contract", does not explain how all the extra spending will be financed. But economists estimate it could cost some €50bn in lost revenue.

Pension reform

The minimum monthly pension is to be set at €780.

The plan abolishes the current pension reform that raises the retirement age in phases.

Instead, a new points system would combine people's total years of social security contributions with their age. The total must be at least 100, meaning that someone who has paid into the system for 41 years, for example, could retire at 59.

Cutting Italy's debt

The populist parties say they want revisions to the EU's Stability and Growth Pact, which sets a tough budget deficit limit of 3% of GDP.

The plan aims to reduce debt through "the revival of internal demand", not by continuing austerity.

Question: Who's supposed to pay for that?

Hint:

[Atlantis]

Just imagine when all this appears and discussed in the German press and media:

They have gotten used to that sort of talk some time ago.



Italy was admitted to the Euro despite German and Dutch objections because the then PM Prodi promised to bring down national debt from 100% to 60% of GDP to fulfill the criteria for Euro membership.

It never happened. They just increased spending. Now they want to solve the problem by spending even more.

Italians will not benefit from higher debts. Europeans will not benefit from higher debts. The only ones to benefit are the Anglo-Imperialists and their extortionist financial institutions.

[Beren]

Now they want to solve the problem by spending even more.

They don't mean to solve anything, they just promised Italy a highly comfortable welfare state with low taxes and now they're blackmailing the Germans with a Euro exit.

[noemon]

I can see there is a great degree of chauvinistic nonsense posted here by Potemkin and Kaiser who are pretending that it is "unethical" to provide interest bearing loans to your economic and political partners. I am looking forward for an explanation of what constitutes ethical banking. Are 1200% payday loans ethical? Is that the interest rate that would make it ethical for Italy and Greece to purchase loans?

"Who is going to pay?" What a pathetic, disgusting and extremely ignorant rhetorical question. The Greek and Italian taxpayers of course like they have been paying for all the sins of Europe for the past decade. Your nonsense here are literally disgusting to the point of vomit-induction. Greek and Italian taxpayers have literally been squeezed dry, the loan-givers have literally made billions in profits, the southern economies have gone into death spirals and people in here are still talking about poor Germans without an inch of shame at a time the Germans are going through a golden age while the Greeks and Italians are going through hell. Pensioners with €3000 pension receive €1200 instead and have mortgages of €1000 per month and another €200 to survive and that is the well-off, the former engineers, doctors and such. People cannot even afford to buy fruit and veg but if you cut their pension to €1000 that is somehow magically going to kick start the economy and make the loans go away. The squeezing has become sadistic and those who promote such policies at this point when there is sufficient proof to that effect are confirmed sadists.

Now they want to solve the problem by spending even more.

Your death spiral austerity contracts the economy and requires more loans. It is far more costly and requires a lot more money to do austerity than the necessary spending to bring internal demand back on track. Taking all the money people have and preventing them from spending anything in a cocktail of cuts and taxes does not achieve anything as the past decade has already shown. Peddling this as a solution is now beyond malicious.

They don't mean to solve anything, they just promised Italy a highly comfortable welfare state with low taxes and now they're blackmailing the Germans with a Euro exit.

You are completely out of touch with reality and are embarrassing yourself.