[layman]

Thought this was quite interesting. An inverse of the uk.

One poll found that more than half of those under 45 would vote to leave, while 46% would opt for remain: for over 45-year-olds, 68% would plump for remain, just 26% for leave. A

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... -austerity

[Varilion]

I see few reasons:
1. Anti-EU propaganda always says that before the € was everything better, which is not true, and if you were already grown up enough back then you obviously know. Otherwise you need to have spend a bit of your life reading...
2. Generally speaking people above 45 are way better settled than those below. It was already like that before 2007 crisis. This is linked to the economic conditions in the '90...
3. Anti-EU movements use mainly internet as their communication channel.
4. Many young people (or people which were young 10y ago) had great expectations from the EU project which did not materialize; plus the left-leaning one got completely shocked by the "greek-treatment"

[Kaiserschmarrn]

I do assume with great confidence, that neither your "opinion" is not "narrowed", no anybody else's.
And you shouldn't mix up therms to achieve own ends.
So called "opinion"settles more easily in the realm of wishes and fantasies,
while responsibility within the frame of reality was, and will be, more narrowed.

Note that by your logic independence movements are never justified because of market reactions.

[Atlantis]

[Ter]

Italy might do just fine...
Look after their own people, not the bankers.
Screw the EU and especially Germany.
And send the illegal immigrants back.

Let's see.

[Albert]

Yea! Yea!

Although I have to be say I'm a bit disappointed in Nigel as he did not support Tommy Robinson in full.

[Ter]

Slovenia election: Anti-immigrant SDS is largest party

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44349007

And there is yet another country not agreeing with Merkel's "Wir schaffen das" green light for mass Muslim immigration.

I wonder if the EU has a "crisis centre" to follow up all the countries that are revolting.
Good times.

[Albert]

I do not know if they do, but if they do they sure will have to hire more staff to deal with all the consequences of their stupidity. Chickens are coming home to roost. One day it will be Mutti herself.

[BeheadTheFrog]

If the Northern League want to repeat history, then we will happily repeat it with them.

Spoiler: show

[Hong Wu]

#Quitaly

Apparently not looking like a racist no matter what is more important to people than making the EU work.

[Beren]

The first question is whether how long this cabinet will last. I like they picked a law professor to lead the government of college dropouts that can only be ministers.

Angela Merkel on Italy: Solidarity in eurozone should not lead to debt union

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has congratulated Italy's new prime minister, Giuseppe Conte. However, she later appeared to dismiss the Italian government's calls to the European Central Bank for debt forgiveness.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Remarkable Spiegel cover. The editorial is apparently titled "The moochers of Rome" which is quite something coming from a left-wing magazine.

It's lovely to see all this European unity, solidarity and friendship led by Germany.

[Decky]

Der Spiegel left wing? What world do you live in? They are pro EU, the left detests the EU. You can't be left wing and also advocate for an alliance of bankers and capitalists like the EU.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Interesting article about the new government.

Italy Challenges the Postwar Order

by Alessandra Bocchi

Italy’s new government represents the most radical challenge yet to the order that has dominated Europe since World War II. Comprising the populist-left Five Star Movement and the populist-right League, the coalition is often described as a combination of alt-left and hard-right, but in fact it moves beyond conventional ideological categories. No wonder its members have been darkly described as “barbarians” by the Financial Times and “insurgents” by the Telegraph.

Something in the project of European integration is not working, and the elites who lead it have refused to adjust. The euro is failing miserably in southern Europe, yet the European commission wants to deepen economic and monetary union. The euro has powered German economic growth while saddling countries like Italy and Greece with austerity and debt. According to official government statistics by Istat, absolute poverty in Italy has doubled in the past decade, a few years after the euro was introduced as the country’s currency.

The new government’s eclectic program emphasizes environmentalism, claiming that “man and the environment are two sides of the same coin,” and calls for a reduction of carbon emissions and an end to fossil fuels. The mixed ideological character of the new coalition is illustrated by Alberto Bagnai, a left-wing euroskeptic economist who represents the League in the Italian Senate. His book, The Sunset of the Euro, decries the single currency as a means for Germany to exert its dominance in the Eurozone. Bagnai also strongly opposes mass immigration, calling it a tool to drive down wages and increase exploitation of workers: “It’s no surprise that ‘left-wing’ ‘intellectuals’ don’t care about immigrants’ impact on wages—it’s because they’re not low skilled workers.”

Even more radically, the 31-year-old leader of the Five Star Movement, Luigi Di Maio, has challenged the tyranny of economic metrics. In a speech prior to the election, he said: “The economic indicator for growth will no longer be GDP.” This represents a fundamental challenge to the free-trade post-war order, which has culminated in the rule of multi-national corporations over small businesses and enterprises.

To address Italy’s public debt crisis, the program rejects austerity measures and seeks to revisit EU treaties that recommend them. In place of austerity, the coalition has proposed a minimum salary, a universal basic income, and a lowering of the pension age. What has raised some eyebrows is the League’s proposal for a more libertarian flat-tax system. How can the government increase spending while also decreasing its revenue? The coalition claims that the program will be paid for by eliminating bureaucratic inefficiencies and by subsidies from the EU. And Italy does indeed have a problem with corruption—Five Star built its popularity by campaigning against it.

The new government also has a traditionalist family minister, the League’s Lorenzo Fontana, who opposes abortion and same-sex civil unions. Italy passed a law for same-sex civil unions only last year and is one of the few countries that has not legalized gay marriage. Fontana strongly opposes the civil-unions law, claiming: “They want to dominate us and erase our people.”

In another traditionalist initiative, the Five Star–League program seeks to reverse Italy’s plummeting birth rates. “It’s necessary to provide family welfare,” the program says. The program proposes measures to help women manage their motherly and professional roles by providing free child-care facilities, thus addressing one of the main reasons for the declining birthrate: the financial penalty imposed by childbirth. The case of Valeria Ferrara, a mother who was denied a Sunday per month to spend with her family by the multi-national Calvin Klein, Inc., is exemplary of this crisis. Both Five Star and the League have, in the past few years, proposed to end Sunday labor. Luigi Di Maio, the leader of Five Star, said, “unrestrained liberalization is making us poorer.”

The Five Star–League program also states that it will oversee the deportation of 500,000 illegal migrants currently living in Italy. Matteo Salvini, the head of the League, who holds the strongest position on immigration, will become minister of the interior under the new government. But even Di Maio, the head of Five Star, has indicated his opposition to mass migration. Last summer he said that the center-left government that has ruled Italy for the past five years had transformed the country into “Europe’s biggest port” for migrants. Di Maio also criticized the activities of NGOs operating in the Mediterranean and transporting migrants to Italian shores: “The EU doesn’t care about saving migrant lives, they just want the money.” The Five Star–League program has accordingly promised to “stop the business of smuggling” and take down “criminal organizations responsible for human trafficking,” which have caused “countless deaths in the Mediterranean.” As for financing the deportation of illegal migrants, the government would accomplish this by “directing funds used for hospitality towards repatriations.”

This would be the toughest stance yet taken by an EU member in Western Europe. (It is interesting to note that Switzerland, which is not part of the EU, has maintained very strict immigration controls and received very little criticism for it.) The measures proposed by the coalition prompted the president of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, to say that the European Commission will now “monitor the rights of African migrants in Italy.” This comment suggests that a collision over migration is imminent, particularly given the EU’s stance toward countries that have taken a tough stance on migration, such as Poland and Hungary.

On foreign policy, the Five Star–League program says it wants to “end sanctions on Russia.” Indeed, the coalition sees Russia as a strategic partner in combating “Islamic terrorism” in the region and in ending the conflicts in Syria, Libya, and Yemen. Despite the great displays of alarm over this fact, it merely reflects a growing consensus in Europe that relationships with Russia must change. “I do think we have to reconnect with Russia,” Juncker said at a conference in Brussels this week. “This Russia-bashing has to be brought to an end.”

Religion also plays a strong role in the program, a role often overlooked by the media. The League has pushed for the registering and monitoring of mosques in Italy. There have also been increasing appeals to a Catholic identity. Di Maio and Salvini have both shown uncommon reverence toward the Catholic Church. In September, Di Maio launched his campaign by observing the old Catholic custom of kissing the vial containing the blood of St. Januarius and bowing before the cardinal of Naples. In 2016, in front of Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome, Di Maio said: “The Church is my home. I am a Catholic.” Leftwing papers have responded by calling him “retrograde.”

Salvini may be even more outspoken about his faith. In March, just before the election, he held up a rosary at one of his rallies, “swearing allegiance to the Gospel and my people.” The chosen prime minister, Giuseppe Conte, a previously unknown figure, is a former leftist who turned to the Five Star Movement. Conte is devoted to Padre Pio, a Catholic saint famous for his stigmata and bilocation.

The Five Star–League program combines euroskepticism, environmentalism, strong borders, protection of families and small businesses against globalization, and respect for religion. It combines elements of left and right in a way that scandalizes well catechized political elites. If it succeeds, it will be the first real sign that we are moving beyond the postwar order.

[Albert]

Omg omg omg, I love Italy.

[hartmut]

Note that by your logic independence movements are never justified because of market reactions.

What I do note is, that your point is based on deliberate misunderstanding.
Your conclusion from what I said is improper, misleading and performs a simple rhetoric trick to get the tracks to own preferred ends.
Sorry ...
Neither a good style, nor convincing.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

What I do note is, that your point is based on deliberate misunderstanding.
Your conclusion from what I said is improper, misleading and performs a simple rhetoric trick to get the tracks to own preferred ends.
Sorry ...
Neither a good style, nor convincing.

Pretending to have mind reading abilities instead of addressing the content of a post is sadly increasingly common but not convincing either, sorry.

[Albert]

Italy! Italy! Italy!

I wish them all the success, it will indeed be not an easy road. The mess left behind by progressives and Eurocrats will not be easy to clean up.

[Atlantis]

I wish them all the success, it will indeed be not an easy road. The mess left behind by progressives and Eurocrats will not be easy to clean up.

Which goes to show that Anglos are completely ignorant about European affairs. Why is it that wannabe Anglos are so eager to spread these lies? Do you feel you have to suck up to your host nation so they will accept you as equals? Give up hope Albert, you'll never be a true Anglo.

It was Italian authorities that kick-started the refugee crisis by channeling refugees to the North of Europe in contravention of EU rules. I even posted about Italian police showing refugees the train for the North months before anybody here talked about the refugee crisis. The migrants kept on coming because they knew that the route to the North was open.


IMMIGRATION, THE SOFT UNDERBELLY OF EUROPE

Italy Opens the Door to Disaster

Italian officials are turning a blind eye to the Syrian refugees fleeing the country for Northern Europe. And even the refugees themselves are worried that anyone could be traveling in their midst -- even terrorists with the Islamic State.
[...]
Muhammad, however, was surprised to see that the Italian authorities took little interest in who these hundreds of migrants were, or where they intended to go.

“Nobody checked us upon reaching Italy,” he says. “No coast guard, no policeman ever asked if we had papers. Nobody registered us, nobody took a photo of us, nobody took our fingerprints, no one asked us who we were.”
[...]
Muhammad and the other migrants would soon find that their Italian hosts were no more interested in keeping them there than they themselves were in staying. When Muhammad asked the Italian police at the asylum center if he had to stay there, one said that he was welcome to sleep there, “but if you want to leave, you can leave.”
[...]
Muhammad’s account is no isolated story. Interviews with over a dozen Syrian asylum seekers who recently crossed the Mediterranean Sea to illegally reach Europe — and who are now in the Netherlands, Germany, and Sweden — reveal similar stories. In all of these cases, migrants said that they were not registered by the Italian authorities, and that the Italian police looked the other way as they walked out of refugee centers to leave Italy by train or car for countries in Western and Northern Europe.

Almost all Syrian refugees in Europe have taken this voyage north from Italy. According to the U.N. Refugee Agency, a total of 217,724 Syrians applied for asylum in the European Union between April 2011 and December 2014. Although a majority of these migrants arrived in Italy, only 1,967 — less than 1 percent — stayed there. The most popular destinations are the wealthy countries of Northern Europe and Scandinavia: 59,529 Syrians applied for asylum in Germany, 53,750 in Sweden, and 11,710 in the Netherlands.

The lack of scrutiny for Syrian migrants arriving in Southern Europe, however, has raised fears that terrorists could be entering along with the regular citizens attempting to escape war. Greek Defense Minister Panos Kammenos even tried to use this influx of refugees as a weapon: If the EU doesn’t back down on austerity measures, he threatened on March 9, Greece would unleash “a wave of millions of economic migrants and jihadists” into Europe. In this group, he warned, “there will be some jihadists of the Islamic State too.”
[...]
But while Italy’s strategy may be dangerous from a security standpoint, Rome’s first priority appears to be getting the migrants off its soil. As Ahmad, a Syrian refugee intent on reaching the Netherlands, discovered, the Italian authorities not only turned a blind eye to migrants leaving their country — they even offered advice should the migrants be turned back on their first attempt.

Ahmad arrived on Italian shores like thousands of Syrians before him, and then promptly escaped the refugee center by sneaking through a hole in a fence. He and his friends hopped on a bus for Milan, and from there took a train to Germany. But the group was caught by the police on their way through Austria, and eventually sent back to the Italian side of the border.

“The Italians immediately released us,” Ahmad said, “They told us: ‘Just use again the same train ticket and take a train later.’ This is what we did.”

[Varilion]

It was Italian authorities that kick-started the refugee crisis by channeling refugees to the North of Europe in contravention of EU rules

You could also say that:

It was the Franco-British unfortunate decision to wage war to Libya which opened the Mediterranean route. Under Gaddafi regime Italy had agreements to keep immigrates out. Italy tried to continue stopping in the same way (by returning people to Libya) the immigration flow and this caused Italy being deferred to the European Court of Human Rights in 2012 and then being judged guilty for violating basic human rights of people (by leaving them in Libya).

After that Italy basically gave up any attempt to control the immigration flow and instead tried to use it as a justification for additional budget deficit; the situation however rapidly collapsed after the German ill-fated decision to accept anyone how was making to to Germany. This set hundred of thousands of people in motions toward Europe, and, after the closure of the Balkan route, increased enormously the pressure on Italy.

This brought to a new Italian policy: you wanted'em, now you get'em.
You cannot ignore border countries when you set your foreign policy and then ask them to protect you from the mess you created.

However, after 2016 the situation became clearly unsustainable. On one hand it was getting problematic what do do with those people, on the other hand there were the neonazi parties rising in the polls. This generated a sort of consensus at European level that it was necessary to do something...

Mid of 2017 Italy reversed back to it's original policy by forging a new agreement with Libya. Migrants are now detained in camps over there. The ECHR hasn't said anything yet, and you don't want to ask what is going on in the Libyan camps.

Now Lega Nord comes to power.....