Changing Alliance? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Atlantis
#14916196
With the trans-Atlantic alliance in deep coma, Europeans discover a new friend in the East. While the number of issues opposing Europe and the US increases by the day (Climate change, Iran deal, Jerusalem, punitive import taxes, WTO, NordStream 2, etc.), Europe needs Russia more than ever - not just for gas supplies, but also for a solution in Syria, Ukraine, and other areas. Merkel notably asked Putin to use his influence with Assad not to implement new property laws effectively disowning anybody not filing claims to his/her property in Syria, which would disown the millions of Syrian refugees abroad.

Moreover, with the new Italian government vehemently opposed to the sanctions against Russia and the Brits departing, the Russian sanctions are unlikely to last another 6 months.

If Trump didn't manage to tie closer ties with Russia, he is certainly succeeding in pushing Europe that way. :lol:


Wary EU powers find common ground with Kremlin - Putin reaches out to Merkel and Macron in pursuit of ‘strategic interest’

For Vladimir Putin it is a moment to savour: two of Europe’s most powerful politicians beating a path to his door.

On Friday Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, met the Russian president in the Black Sea resort of Sochi to make clear that Germany had a “strategic interest” in maintaining good relations with Moscow.

Next week France’s President Emmanuel Macron will be in St Petersburg, a guest at Russia’s most important annual economic forum.

“Even in the most difficult times, we never broke off contact with each other,” Mr Putin said after his meeting with Ms Merkel, whom he earlier presented with a bouquet of roses.

“Life goes on, develops, new opportunities arise.”

Russia’s diplomatic standing has in recent months been at rock bottom. But the twin visits show that it could be rising from the depths, dragged upwards by Donald Trump’s decision to quit the international nuclear agreement with Iran and impose new sanctions on Tehran.

At odds over Syria, Ukraine and Moscow’s meddling in the US election, Germany and Russia now find themselves in the unusual position of having a number of shared interests. They both want to keep the Iran deal alive, and are both resisting US pressure over Nord Stream 2, the planned gas pipeline between Russia and Europe.

Asked after Friday’s meeting if a thaw was under way between Berlin and Moscow, Ms Merkel said: “I consider it absolutely important for us to talk to each other.”

French officials said Mr Macron, during his visit to Russia next week, would also seek to underscore the new convergence with Moscow. “We have a collective interest in staying in the [Iran] deal,” an Elysee aide said.

“One common concern that brings us together is a willingness to avoid escalation in the region,” another aide noted.

Mr Putin is clearly relishing the opportunity to show he is a more dependable partner than Mr Trump, who has shown disregard for traditional alliances. “Putin feels himself to be the temporary winner in this new situation,” said Norbert Röttgen, chairman of the Bundestag’s foreign affairs committee. “He can’t quite believe his luck.”

A focus of Friday’s meeting in Sochi was the future of Nord Stream 2, which is strongly opposed by the Trump administration. It believes the pipeline, which runs under the Baltic Sea, bypassing Ukraine, will deprive Kiev of critical transit fees and make Europe more dependent on Russian energy exports. Mr Trump hit out at Germany this week for “buying massive amounts of gas from Russia”.

Ms Merkel Ms Merkel had sought assurances from Mr Putin that Russia would continue to send gas through the Ukrainian pipeline system even after Nord Stream 2 comes on line, thus addressing some of the US concerns over the project. Mr Putin told reporters after the meeting that Russia was ready to do so — providing such shipments “make economic sense”.

France is also hoping that Mr Macron’s trip to Russia next week will herald a thaw in the relationship. The president will meet Mr Putin for three hours in St Petersburg next Thursday and the following day take part in a panel at the city’s annual International Economic Forum. He would be keen to “show we hold firm positions [on contentious isues such as Syria] but also seek to deepen the relationship everywhere we can,” a senior diplomat said.

Yet signs of a rapprochement between Russia on the one hand and France and Germany on the other pale into insignificance when set against their remaining disagreements. Paris and Berlin have repeatedly condemned Russia’s support for Bashar al-Assad in Syria and its military interference in eastern Ukraine. They also joined the UK in expelling Russian diplomats in March over the nerve agent poisoning of former Soviet agent Sergei Skripal.

Anton Khlopkov, an analyst at the Centre for Energy and Security Studies, said he was sceptical that Europe and Russia would be able to work together to salvage the Iran deal, known as the JCPOA.

“The Europeans are too focused on the idea that Russia wants to undermine their relationship with the US, and less focused on saving the JCPOA,” he said.

Russian politicians agree. Grigory Yavlinsky, a veteran liberal politician, said any talk of a thaw in relations between Europe and Russia was “wishful thinking”.

Mr Yavlinsky, who was one of the token challenger candidates who ran against Mr Putin in the March presidential election, said the “first root cause” of the chill between Moscow and western capitals was Russia’s policy in Ukraine.

Relations would only improve if Russia agreed to discuss the status of Crimea, which it annexed in 2014, pull out of eastern Ukraine and abandon his attempts to compromise Ukraine’s sovereignty. “But I don’t see any signs [of that],” he said.

Indeed Mr Putin’s most high-profile public appearance in weeks suggested that he has no intention of backing down. On Thursday, he opened a bridge linking Crimea with mainland Russia, a pet project built by a company controlled by his billionaire friend Arkady Rotenberg.

Although Mr Putin mainly touted the economic benefits the bridge would bring, underlining the Kremlin’s focus on improving people’s livelihoods, his appearance was condemned by several western governments.

Back in Sochi, Ms Merkel rejected the suggestion that more cordial relations with Mr Putin were a sign that she was turning away from the US.

“We have a strong transatlantic friendship,” she said. Through its history there had been disputes and differences of opinion. “But this does not call into question the intensity of that transatlantic relationship,” she said.
User avatar
By Beren
#14916206
Atlantis wrote:If Trump didn't manage to tie closer ties with Russia, he is certainly succeeding in pushing Europe that way. :lol:

Maybe he's just doing his job and the Russians are getting paid off. It's not America Putin wants closer relations to.
#14916212
Now, more than ever, the Germans are reliant on NATO, given the absolute state of disrepair their military is in. We're talking about post-Soviet levels of neglect. They've only got a single submarine running on spare parts and practically their entire Eurofighter fleet is unserviceable due to design flaws and lack of components. And if France is anything to go by, they'll be needing their army to maintain order within their own borders thanks to the Merkelian double nightmare of too much Islam and a mushrooming immigrant population. :lol:
User avatar
By Beren
#14916217
Maybe that's why Putin feels like cutting the defence budget and spending the money on something else. Europe needs new alliances anyway since half America are anti-European, and if they can choose whether whom to give a punch in the stomach, it seems to be Europe, I wonder if it's worse with Russia or China. As Tusk said with friends like that who needs enemies? The sun is rising in the East and setting in the West, by the way. ;)
User avatar
By One Degree
#14916221
Just the fact we still consider alliances important shows we have not evolved at all. Who are you allying against? Do you expect war between the US and the EU/Russia alliance?
User avatar
By One Degree
#14916224
Beren wrote:Those who pulled out of the Iran deal and threaten Europe with sanctions perhaps?


So you consider it in your best interest to prepare for war with the US over these issues? Lol. Why are you discussing alliances rather than trade negotiations? Why do you think it is an ‘either or’ scenario?
This is actually what Trump has proposed. Let us trade fairly with one another. You crucify Trump for ‘Russian collusion’ and then propose allying with Russia in opposition to him?
This is unbelievably bizarre reasoning.
By B0ycey
#14916228
...but America are planning on penalizing European companies who trade with Iran. And who mentioned War? Trumps actions are forcing Europe's hand. You can't negotiate when the rules have been set.
User avatar
By Beren
#14916229
One Degree wrote:So you consider it in your best interest to prepare for war with the US over these issues?

I just consider it in our best interest to switch sides, it seems to be the right time, and it's pretty much like we're being actually asked to do so.
User avatar
By One Degree
#14916230
B0ycey wrote:...but America are planning on penalizing European companies who trade with Iran. And who mentioned War? Trumps actions are forcing Europe's hand. You can't negotiate when the rules have been set.


‘Alliance’ suggests preparation for war. This was the word used in the title of the thread.
All countries should be free to base their trade on whatever they want. Whether you trade with the US or Russia should not require an alliance.
User avatar
By One Degree
#14916234
B0ycey wrote:As I know you stuggle with the English language, I will help you out.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/alliance

No need to thank me. I am happy to help.


Why don’t you read the opening post to understand it’s intent rather than using meaningless word games.
The use of ‘strategic alliance’ may be a hint.
Now back to my question. Please explain how you justify crucifying Trump for Russian collusion and proposing a ‘strategic alliance’ with Russia in opposition to him?
By B0ycey
#14916237
One Degree wrote:Why don’t you read the opening post to understand it’s intent rather than using meaningless word games.
The use of ‘strategic alliance’ may be a hint.


Well it is a hint. In uniting common interests, such as Iran - not fucking war. Only an American sees war in everything. Hence why they are evolved in so many.

Now back to my question. Please explain how you justify crucifying Trump for Russian collusion and proposing a ‘strategic alliance’ with Russia in opposition to him?


I have no real interest in whether there was collusion with Russia and Trump to crucify him actually. I have maybe wrote one post in the Mueller thread. But let's be clear. It is Trump who is alienating Europe, not the other way round. It makes sense to look for new alliances if your biggest partner is endangering your economy and values with Trumponomics btw.
User avatar
By One Degree
#14916240
B0ycey wrote:Well it is a hint. In uniting common interests, such as Iran - not fucking war. Only an American sees war in everything. Hence why they are evolved in so many.



I have no real interest in whether there was collusion with Russia and Trump to crucify him actually. I have maybe wrote one post in the Mueller thread. But let's be clear. It is Trump who is alienating Europe, not the other way round. It makes sense to look for new alliances if your biggest partner is endangering your economy and values with Trumponomics btw.


Trump is only alienating the ‘liberal EU’ Europe and their irrational views that lead to world Oligarchy. I have no problem with them fighting back, but I hope many wiser Europeans see they need to pursue their interests instead of the EU’s. Hey, they are free to do whatever they want in my philosophy and so is Trump. I want both the EU and the US decentralized. Let Berlin and New York decide who to trade with. :)
By Atlantis
#14916267
:lol: @The Sabbaticus, you fell for that German-army-in-a-state-of-disrepair narrative? Didn't they teach you anything at school? These sorts of news items are deliberately placed by the military-industrial lobby to boost defence spending. Combined, Europe spends more than enough on defence. We just have to become independent of Nato, pool resources and direct our resources to defend European instead of American interests. US defence spending goes towards creating insecurity in the ME and Europe. We need our defence spending to create security.

One Degree wrote:Why don’t you read the opening post to understand it’s intent rather than using meaningless word games.
The use of ‘strategic alliance’ may be a hint.


That's exactly the point, One Degree, the OP didn't use the term "strategic alliance," it used the generic term "alliance" which doesn't have to be a military alliance.

In fact, in my own comments and in the FT article I posted, there is no talk of military alliance at all. It's all in your own head. We are talking about common interests, for example in gas supplies, about the climate agreement, about the Iran deal, etc. Whether or not this could lead to a strategic alliance is an open question at this point.

One Degree wrote:All countries should be free to base their trade on whatever they want. Whether you trade with the US or Russia should not require an alliance.


On that basis, I'm sure most of us would be happy to continue our close relation with your country. Unfortunately, the Yankee Empire (my first in this thread :) ) doesn't see it that way. Russian gas is 20% cheaper (and cleaner) than US gas. That's why the US is using political sanctions to eliminate a market competitor and force its dirty stuff on us at exorbitant prices. That is what "free trade" means under the dictate of the bloody Empire.

Beren wrote:I just consider it in our best interest to switch sides, it seems to be the right time, and it's pretty much like we're being actually asked to do so.


True, European politicians are so complacent. They need to be kicked into action. Otherwise, they'll just hang onto the status quo no matter who painful.
User avatar
By One Degree
#14916268
That's exactly the point, One Degree, the OP didn't use the term "strategic alliance,"


@Atlantis

‘Strategic alliance’ is part of the title of the article cited.

Edit: it actually says ‘strategic interests’, so I will admit to some confusion.
User avatar
By Beren
#14916272
Accusing Europe of preparing for war...with the USA... :lol:

She just accepts the break-up and draws conclusions. Americans electing Trump, the British voting to leave, Trump asking Europe for more protection money, withdrawing from the Paris Treaty, pulling out of the Iran deal and threatening Europe with sanctions, and doing anything he can to bully Europeans basically... How is this still supposed to be an alliance? :?: It rather seems like filing divorce. The Iran deal is a multilateral agreement unanimously approved of by the UNSC, by the way, and now the US government demands Europe to pull out as well, or else they will be sanctioned. Then again, is this not something welcomed by Trump supporters? Although they believe it's America First, it's Family First actually, and Trump has a big family for sure.
User avatar
By One Degree
#14916279
Beren wrote:Accusing Europe of preparing for war...with the USA... :lol:

She just accepts the break-up and draws conclusions. Americans electing Trump, the British voting to leave, Trump asking Europe for more protection money, withdrawing from the Paris Treaty, pulling out of the Iran deal and threatening Europe with sanctions, and doing anything he can to bully Europeans basically... How is this still supposed to be an alliance? :?: It rather seems like filing divorce. The Iran deal is a multilateral agreement unanimously approved of by the UNSC, by the way, and now the US government demands Europe to pull out as well, or else they will be sanctioned. Then again, is this not something welcomed by Trump supporters? Although they believe it's America First, it's Family First actually, and Trump has a big family for sure.


Trump ‘threatening’ sanctions means nothing. The EU (not Europeans) have become US opponents under Trump. We no longer share the same world view we did under Obama. I would like to think Trump’s threats are just to make the more extreme liberals worry about backlash from their own citizens over a divide with the US.
They really are our ideological opponents now, and they need to decide on a break with us or moderating their ideology. Liberal globalism is no longer compatible with a Trump US.
Interesting times. I think a break with the US will escalate populism in the EU and destroy the EU, but who knows.
By Atlantis
#14916281
One Degree wrote:@Atlantis

‘Strategic alliance’ is part of the title of the article cited.

Edit: it actually says ‘strategic interests’, so I will admit to some confusion.


There is no confusion, One Degree, there is only you substituting facts by your own preconceptions. You see things that don't exist. Does explain a lot, doesn't it! :p
User avatar
By One Degree
#14916283
Atlantis wrote:There is no confusion, One Degree, there is only you substituting facts by your own preconceptions. You see things that don't exist. Does explain a lot, doesn't it! :p


What can I say? My brain does that sometimes. ‘Strategic interests’ was over the larger ‘alliance’ and my brain confused them in my quick read. That is not substituting facts that is just me not being perfect. :)
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