The Russian army is potentially stronger than all the armies of Europe - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15005042
quetzlcoatl wrote:Well, assuming a Mach 27 missile can be deployed, rapid vector changes will be unnecessary. The US has no current or proposed defense against a hypersonic missile.

That's faster than a spacecraft re-entering the atmosphere from low Earth orbit. It would probably just blow up from the friction alone. That's why this type of propaganda is just stupid, and makes me wonder why they even bother with this kind of bullshit. The US already demonstrated it could shoot down satellites with SM-2 missiles on Ticonderoga-class ships using the Aegis defense system back in 2008. Shooting a missile would be about the same degree of precision. For a time, I believe adding those capabilities for general defense would have been a ABM treaty violation. However, the US pulled out of the ABM treaty. So that demonstration alone would suggest that some sort of Mach 21 missile could be tracked, targeted and destroyed. Even minor damage to a heat shield would destroy a missile travelling that fast.

Istanbuller wrote:America is bluffing. You can't keep Turkey in NATO with such threats.

Maybe keeping Turkey in NATO is not Trump's objective. As an ally, Turkey proved useless during the Iraq War. They have been difficult to deal with during the conflict in Syria. America has a lot of pseudo allies, and Trump is the sort of iconoclast that wants to undermine paper tiger alliances particularly with allies who either don't pull their weight or act in a hostile manner to the rest of the alliance.

Istanbuller wrote:Turkey's possible departure from NATO means massive military shrinkage for the West.

It means being honest about NATO's actual military capability. Today, the US and UK are first rate militaries. We get full cooperation from Eastern European countries like Poland and Czechia. Allies like Germany are weak and have been weak for a long time.

Istanbuller wrote:It is major development and game changer thing.

That game may already have changed, and Trump is just making it obvious to the rest of the NATO allies.

Istanbuller wrote:Probably most important development in international politics in last four decades.

The fall of the Soviet Union easily eclipses this development. It's the biggest development for Turkey in four decades for sure.

Tintin Storm wrote:It is known that the weapons at the disposal of Russia have always been the most reliable, powerful and killing in the world.

Russia is known for robust weaponry, not necessarily the most powerful or sophisticated by any stretch.

Tintin Storm wrote:Also, it is impossible to disregard the development of the T-14 tank, which in the USA was called a revolution in tank building, and also reported that NATO has no competitor among the combat vehicles.

Abrams tanks have been continuously upgraded throughout their life. The idea that an M1 today is equal to one in 1982 is a huge mistake. The US recycles the Chobham armor hulls and basically builds entirely new tanks out of them.

Tintin Storm wrote:The newest 2B25 «Gall» mortars began to enter the Russian army, which are characterized by almost complete noiselessness, making it very difficult to detect the position from which the shooting is being conducted.

Anti-artillery systems use radar, not acoustics, to calculate the firing position and calculate a firing solution to return fire. It happens in seconds.

Tintin Storm wrote:It is possible to bring a mortar into a combat position from a traveling one in just 30 seconds; it is able to work at an ambient temperature of minus 50 to plus 50 degrees Celsius, a crew of two men. Also, the undoubted advantage of the 2B25 mortar is the stealthness of the firing position and the suddenness of its use due to the noiselessness, flamelessness and smokelessness of shooting, due to the peculiarities of the design scheme and the use of the silent 3PO35 shot.

That will be wonderful against lesser armed adversaries, and even against NATO troops outside the protection of C-RAM counter-artillery. I wouldn't want to be one of those mortar operators within the combat radius of a US C-RAM counter-artillery battery though. It's wicked stuff. They can actually hit mortars with rockets (albeit only about 30% of the time), and have a firing solution to hit the launcher simultaneously (much more accurate). You really have to shoot and scoot very quickly to avoid becoming BBQ meat.
#15005832
blackjack21 wrote:Maybe keeping Turkey in NATO is not Trump's objective. As an ally, Turkey proved useless during the Iraq War. They have been difficult to deal with during the conflict in Syria. America has a lot of pseudo allies, and Trump is the sort of iconoclast that wants to undermine paper tiger alliances particularly with allies who either don't pull their weight or act in a hostile manner to the rest of the alliance.

Donald Trump is not in charge of American foreign policy. What is causing Turkish-American relations strained is West's hostility toward Turkey.
It means being honest about NATO's actual military capability. Today, the US and UK are first rate militaries. We get full cooperation from Eastern European countries like Poland and Czechia. Allies like Germany are weak and have been weak for a long time.

The UK is not a first rate army. It is just much better than all other Euro armies. And slightly better than Turkey. We can say it second rate armies.

Your Poland and Czechia examples are not relevant. These countries are not known for their military capability. Turkey is one of a few countries who are known for their elite class military production and exporting.
#15005838
Istanbuller wrote:What is causing Turkish-American relations strained is West's hostility toward Turkey.

That's a bit of a stretch. The West has well-founded concerns over Islamism. Turkey has spent roughly 100 years as a secular state, but with Erdogan it is trending toward Islamism. Consequently, the EU is concerned about admitting it as a member--not that you should want to join the EU as it is set to come flying apart. Additionally, Erdogan has ambitions that fall outside of NATO ambitions; hence, they are becoming increasingly incompatible with NATO.

Istanbuller wrote:The UK is not a first rate army.

They are a pretty top-notch fighting force. Their weakness these days is in aging air power. Tornadoes are pretty old. Still good troop support, but they are a bit old for a fighter. F-35s will help with that, but they have been slow rolling out.

Istanbuller wrote:It is just much better than all other Euro armies.

Only France and Russia have significant overseas presence. There aren't any significant Euro armies right now.

Istanbuller wrote:And slightly better than Turkey.

That would be an interesting match. Technically, the British are more advanced, but Turkey's military is bigger. If I were British, I would certainly avoid a fight with Turkey.

Istanbuller wrote:Your Poland and Czechia examples are not relevant. These countries are not known for their military capability.

Czechia isn't big enough to field a large military. Politically, they understand who has their freedom and independence in mind, and ally accordingly. Poland is big enough to field a tougher military. They just aren't economically as vibrant as Germany to afford something much bigger without government spending crowding out the private sector.

Istanbuller wrote:Turkey is one of a few countries who are known for their elite class military production and exporting.

Yes. That could be significantly curtailed, however. The US helped Turkey build an export market for F-35 parts. Turkey is in jeopardy of losing that business. One third of Turkish military exports go to the United States. Losing the F-35 business and other exports to the US would seriously hurt Turkey's defense industry. Yet, Erdogan is pushing forward with that anyway.

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