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User avatar
By Beren
#14955005
Baff wrote:No one in their right mind wants to be PM right now. lol
Even Boris ducked out of it.

Is it possible that Mercer refused running for PM? :lol:
By Baff
#14955006
No idea.
I read his interview this morning, but it went in one ear out the other.

He's veteran of Afghan War and the article described him as a possible future Prime Minister. But they describe everyone that way.
God knows we are looking for someone else to takeover right now.
By B0ycey
#14955008
Baff wrote:I believe there was a manifesto on leaving.
I believe I got sent it through my door by the government before the vote.


The leaflet that was posted wasn't a manifesto. It was propaganda bullshit. A threat of 100+ million Turkish migrants moving to Britain is hardly a pledge.

I think up until that time I would have agreed with you.
And that people leaving all had different idea's of what they wanted to have instead.


Well clearly people did vote for different reasons. Which Brexiteers are asking to leave with no deal? Who is asking to walk away? Sure there are people who say it is better than a bad deal, but even Johnson isn't asking us to fuck off and go it alone. They still hope for a deal with cherries on top.

But in order to scare us off from voting leave, they made it a binary decision.
Stay, or leave with nothing.

And we all voted leave with nothing in preference to staying.

And we knew exactly what the deal was because Cameron negotiated it before we voted to leave.
We didn't vote to leave blindly, the negotiation was completed and then we voted on it.

The UK is not divided.
The UK held a referendum and has decided.


I don't remember anyone who campaigned for Brexit saying that we were going to walk away from Europe and start again at the expense of our economy. There were plenty saying Europe would beg us for a trade deal as they sell more to us than we sell to them. And we were promised a bonanza of cash that would pay for our NHS, but not that we would all be worse off financially and jobs would be lost.

There was a reason why Johnson and Goves looked like shitting their pants when the results came in. They didn't want to win. They wanted to a close loss so they could campaign on a notion of EU reform.

The talks are going nowhere if you hope to stay in the EU.
And you may hope that parliament will vote to delay Brexit until a general election so you can deny democracy.


Democracy is about changing your choices. We now know what Brexit entails when before we didn't. Are you afraid of another referendum because you know what was promised cannot be delivered so unlikely to win this time round? Although in British law the referendum was not legally binding and actual democracy is in elected representation. So surely parliament should decide on the fate on our EU membership if you are preaching democracy.

But it won't. That is my honest assessment and I am pleasantly relieved that it has turned out this way.

So from your angle, it is going nowhere. But from my angle, it is going where it has been asked. No deal is in line with polling wishes and Referendum vote.
Despite a great many peoples best efforts to prevent that, democracy is winning.


Brexit will go no where with Corbyn in charge of negotiations as well. He too is a cherry picker. But while a transition period is in place, it just keeps the EU and UK economy going until someone realises the only actual solution to any of this is being part of the customs union. Do we really want to compromise our standards so the Yanks can sell us GM Foods that have been fertilised in cancer pesticide anyway?
By Baff
#14955016
B0ycey wrote:The leaflet that was posted wasn't a manifesto. It was propaganda bullshit. A threat of 100+ million Turkish migrants moving to Britain is hardly a pledge.
Turkish membership of the EU pretty much hinges on the UK vote however. So unlikely to occur at all now.



Well clearly people did vote for different reasons. Which Brexiteers are asking to leave with no deal? Who is asking to walk away? Sure there are people who say it is better than a bad deal, but even Johnson isn't asking us to fuck off and go it alone. They still hope for a deal with cherries on top.



I don't remember anyone who campaigned for Brexit saying that we were going to walk away from Europe and start again at the expense of our economy. There were plenty saying Europe would beg us for a trade deal as they sell more to us than we sell to them. And we were promised a bonanza of cash that would pay for our NHS, but not that we would all be worse off financially and jobs would be lost.

There was a reason why Johnson and Goves looked like shitting their pants when the results came in. They didn't want to win. They wanted to a close loss so they could campaign on a notion of EU reform.



Democracy is about changing your choices. We now know what Brexit entails when before we didn't. Are you afraid of another referendum because you know what was promised cannot be delivered so unlikely to win this time round? Although in British law the referendum was not legally binding and actual democracy is in elected representation. So surely parliament should decide on the fate on our EU membership if you are preaching democracy.



Brexit will go no where with Corbyn in charge of negotiations as well. He too is a cherry picker. But while a transition period is in place, it just keeps the EU and UK economy going until someone realises the only actual solution to any of this is being part of the customs union. Do we really want to compromise our standards so the Yanks can sell us GM Foods that have been fertilised in cancer pesticide anyway?



Don't remember anything about 100+ million Turks in the government leaflet.
Turkish EU membership is however for the birds with the UK to endorse them.
I do remember people in the campaign saying Brexit will likely come at a hit to our economy.

I also remember the campaign bus slogan on what the EU tribute could otherwise be spent on.
I think the EU is currently begging us for a trade deal just not one that suits us.
And I also think that after we leave it will offer us a better one than it is now.
Not that I personally happen to want one.

And not that the Prime Minister of the day and every leave campaigner did not make tediously and repeatedly clear that we wouldn't get one. And that we would all be economically poorer and all your fears were made exactly clear to every one.
And everyone in the country has heard all these arguments until they are sick of hearing them. And no one at all didn't understand the issues they were voting on. Because very loud remainers dominated that campaign.
The precursor to which was 30 years of public debate.

And though you yourself may not personally accept the truth of this, the country taken as a whole does.
You had your say. And it was an equal one.


Democracy is indeed about changing your choices.
Once this choice has been implemented you will be able to campaign to get it changed.




I don't really expect Corbyn to see power, if I am quite honest with you.
Nor do I expect Brexit to be left for him to have any say in it.

Unless parliament and the EU can agree a deal in the next 6 months, it's all completed before the next General election.
I don't see he him getting a chance to negotiate a deal before we leave.
Perhaps a new deal afterwards.
But that would require him getting elected and I find that a hard thing to imagine.

I Nostrodorkus predict.
User avatar
By Kaiserschmarrn
#14955037
Here's a thread on the backstop, and how it violates EU red lines and the December agreement. What should be a minor issue, which realistically can only be discussed in the context of a future relationship, has been concocted to be the central problem and brought everything to a halt. The whole thing is bizarre all around.


There are rumours now that some Tory MPs want to make David Davis the interim leader.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, as this comes up now and again in a Brexit context, I'll leave this article here regarding the much reported "Brexit spike" in hate crimes here.

Surprisingly good news in the hate crime figures

I'm not surprised at all. This idea that Brexit unleashed a hate crime wave never seemed credible to me. Hate crime reports as recorded by police:
Image

Versus hate crimes from the Crime Survey:
Image
By hartmut
#14955041
Did the British contemplate at all, that Brexit could split the Irish Island in a dangerous way, as a reminiscent of bloody times, when they voted with slim majority?
(That is a rhetorical question, because obviously they did not.)
Neither was it asked by Nigel Farage, nor by Boris Johnson.
Little surprise, but severe trouble.
User avatar
By Kaiserschmarrn
#14955045
hartmut wrote:Did the British contemplate at all, that Brexit could split the Irish Island in a dangerous way, as a reminiscent of bloody times, when they voted with slim majority?
(That is a rhetorical question, because obviously they did not.)

The island is already split. There exists a border right now between NI and RoI with respect to VAT and excise duty for example.

This is a red herring. All sides, including the EU when pressed by Ireland, have guaranteed that there will be no hard border under any circumstances. No qualifications.

Also note that the IRA were not the only terrorists in NI. If the EU wanted to take the moral high ground here, it shouldn't have deliberately made NI the sole focus of the negotiations, thereby getting NI hardliners and extremists worked up, but rather treated this as an issue for the UK and RoI to work out in parallel to any negotiations about a future trade relationship, if any.


-------------------------------------------------

Generally, I love it how everybody has suddenly become an GFA expert and people who would never spare a thought for NI otherwise are now so very concerned about peace.
User avatar
By ingliz
#14955128
Baff wrote:No one in their right mind wants to be PM right now.

Why not?

With the brexiteers promising unicorns frolicking in sunny uplands and pots and pots of gold just lying there at the end of an English rainbow, what is the problem.

Kaiserschmarrn wrote:there will be no hard border under any circumstances. No qualifications.

Are you sure?

The ERG are arming the Unionist paramilitaries, now.


:lol:
By Baff
#14955151
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:Here's a thread on the backstop, and how it violates EU red lines and the December agreement. What should be a minor issue, which realistically can only be discussed in the context of a future relationship, has been concocted to be the central problem and brought everything to a halt. The whole thing is bizarre all around.


There are rumours now that some Tory MPs want to make David Davis the interim leader.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, as this comes up now and again in a Brexit context, I'll leave this article here regarding the much reported "Brexit spike" in hate crimes here.

Surprisingly good news in the hate crime figures

I'm not surprised at all. This idea that Brexit unleashed a hate crime wave never seemed credible to me. Hate crime reports as recorded by police:
Image

Versus hate crimes from the Crime Survey:
Image


One of those hate crimes was Count Dankula training his girlfriend's pug to Hitler salute when he said "Seig Heil".
You couldn't make this shit up.

This is a post Brexit hate crime.

By Baff
#14955155
ingliz wrote:Why not?

With the brexiteers promising unicorns frolicking in sunny uplands and pots and pots of gold just lying there at the end of an English rainbow, what is the problem.


Are you sure?

The ERG are arming the Unionist paramilitaries, now.


:lol:

The problem is there is no more pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for politicians.
The EU is lost to them.

Their mates will be sacked. Their future careers closed.

Any PM now has to deliver the undeliverable.
A good deal with the EU.

It's a task they can only fail.

The country is anti EU, but the politicians and media are all pro.
The parties are all split between self interest and national duty and for politicians this is a total disaster.
ROFLLMAO.

Good.




The Guardian isn't a news source I take seriously mate.
They will say anything to stay in power.

Bad journalism. Biased source. Fake news central. Echo chamber. Small readership.
Every single employee is a member of the Labour party. Their mission statement is to deliver political power and not to make money delivering news.


They and the EU are perfectly happy to foment war in Ireland to get their way.
Totally agreeable to this. Just as they were in Ukraine.
It's OK to treat them as hostile entities. Because they are.
By Baff
#14955156
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:The island is already split. There exists a border right now between NI and RoI with respect to VAT and excise duty for example.

This is a red herring. All sides, including the EU when pressed by Ireland, have guaranteed that there will be no hard border under any circumstances. No qualifications.

Also note that the IRA were not the only terrorists in NI. If the EU wanted to take the moral high ground here, it shouldn't have deliberately made NI the sole focus of the negotiations, thereby getting NI hardliners and extremists worked up, but rather treated this as an issue for the UK and RoI to work out in parallel to any negotiations about a future trade relationship, if any.


-------------------------------------------------

Generally, I love it how everybody has suddenly become an GFA expert and people who would never spare a thought for NI otherwise are now so very concerned about peace.


Exactly. This is not a problem for anyone with a "can do" attitude.

It is an invented problem the sole purpose of which is to create impediment to Brexit.
Just like all the other fake problems.

Airplanes can't land, drivers licenses aren't valid... just another problem, which is only a problem if you make it a problem.
Which wouldn't be a problem at all... unless you actively wanted to make it one and went out of your way to do so.

None of these problems are problems at all.
They are pretend problems. Deliberate obstruction with the purpose of keeping the UK in the EU or... if the UK leaves of punishing it visibly for the other EU countries to see.

They are acts of hostility, plain and simple.

And it suits remainers, who also seek to overturn democracy, to play along. So they do.
But the day after Brexit, all these problems will miraculously dissolve.
And if they don't, that's what the RAF is for.

It is a mistake to be reasonable with the unreasonable.
Never reward this kind of behaviour. Never appease.
User avatar
By ingliz
#14955160
Baff wrote:all these problems will miraculously dissolve.

:lol:

And if they don't, that's what the RAF is for.

:lol: :lol:
By Baff
#14955167
hartmut wrote:Did the British contemplate at all, that Brexit could split the Irish Island in a dangerous way, as a reminiscent of bloody times, when they voted with slim majority?
(That is a rhetorical question, because obviously they did not.)
Neither was it asked by Nigel Farage, nor by Boris Johnson.
Little surprise, but severe trouble.


No. And we still don't.

This is a manufactured attempted to cause trouble by the EU that we had not anticipated but do not fear.
The EU can either back down or jog on. Preferably jog on.

If this is what you call trouble, the UK's history with attempts to unify Europe entirely escapes you.
Expect war, hope for peace.
By B0ycey
#14955174
According to Barnier, 90% of Brexit has been agreed @Baff. Most of the so called minor issues you have highlighted would have been sorted out already. So no need to send over the bombers. They can stay in Waddington. But surely even you must understand that the EU cannot agree to a deal that endangers their single market - the same as the UK can't agree on a deal that divides NI from the rest of the UK. Because of this, it is actually the UKs position that is preventing a trade deal from being accomplished as they want all the benefits of open trade without any of the burden. So unless the UK agree to at least the Customs Union rules, these talks are going no where.
By Baff
#14955180
I don't think anything they agree can get through parliament. They don't have the numbers. Nor is any deal they can make likely to offer them the numbers. It's a minority government




And the 90% they have agreed was the bits that were easy to agree. The 10% they can't agree is a problem which apparently needs another few years to discuss.


I understand the rhetoric Boycey.
And I also understand the goals of the people making it.
Which is to keep Britain inside the EU.

So I have no desire to play their games. Because doing things their way results in their aims. Which we don't want.

Now on Europe's busiest trade border, Rotterdam, goods are checked every day up to 20 miles inside the EU border.
So it is in every way possible for us to do the same in NI.
So we don't need a hard border any more than the EU does.

But they say they do. Because they are trying to force a position on us we do not want.
It is a negotiating position and not a physical impossibility.

The goal of this position is to manipulate us into decision we do not wish to take.
It is an act of malice.

In the event that no deal is accepted by either our parliament or theirs, we will not create a hard border and nor will the Irish.
So we ignore this problem and it is no problem.
It's that simple. It is a manufactured problem. An invention. Not real.

People have gone out of their way to make this a problem where there is none.
The border exists and it already functions.

To make it non functional will require extra effort.
To destroy what already works, takes effort.

And you can make whatever excuses you like for doing it.
But the reason is simply this.
Leverage to force the UK to accept bad deals.

And the UK should not and will not accept it.


These talks are going no where. I agree.
The EU could allow them to go forward, but they don't wish to.

But these talks are not important.
Because no one talking can deliver the British people to the EU.
They don't represent anyone.

And the people talking for the EU, they don't represent anyone either.

It's bollocks. Theatre.

So grab some popcorn, sit back and enjoy the show.
The cat is amongst the pigeons.
User avatar
By Seeker8
#14955184
So what exactly would you consider grounds for invasion Baff? like, what is the least action the E.U could take?

BTW i thought one of the main points of brexit was securing our borders. But it's not secured if there is no border in Ireland is it.
By B0ycey
#14955187
Baff wrote:I don't think anything they agree can get through parliament. They don't have the numbers. Nor is any deal they can make likely to offer them the numbers. It's a minority government


I suspect you're right. Although a revolt in parliament won't mean we leave without a deal. The government will be forced to continue negotiations as there aren't that many MPs or public voices that want to just walk away with nothing. And I am sure the EU are happy to extend the transition period until at least the next prime minister comes into power.

So for you, the only hope for a swift no deal Brexit is through another referendum, where the choice specifically states we leave with what has been agreed so far and that is it or we remain in the EU. Otherwise the UK will just remain in limbo.

Now on Europe's busiest trade border. Rotterdam, goods are checked every day, up to 20 miles inside the EU border.
So it is in every way possible for us to do the same in NI.
So we don't need a hard border any more than the EU does.

But they say they do. Because they are trying to force a position on us we do not want.
It is a negotiating position and not a physical impossibility.

The goal of this position os to manipulate us into decision we do not wish to take.
It is an act of malice.

In the event that no deal is accepted by either our parliament of theirs. We will not create a hard border and nor will the Irish.
So we ignore this problem and it is no problem.
It's that simple. It is a manufactured problem. An invention. Not real.

People have gone out of their way to make this a problem where there is none.
The border exists and it already functions.


I am fully aware that the NI border isn't really a problem at all Baff. I know that the border will be open just as it is today for everyday users even under Hard Brexit. And I also know that customs checks won't be done at the border either. But that doesn't mean there isn't an issue. Checks on goods are required under WTO rules and if you don't have shared standards in goods, these checks will also need to be done somewhere near the border to prevent illegal goods from entering your market. And that is where the problem lies. The EU wants all this done at the Irish sea with NI in the customs union and the UK wants minimal checks by saying the will oblige to EU standards without signing up to these standards and all additional checks to be done by technology. I don't know if the UK has suggested land ports for goods that near the NI border yet, but ultimately this is what they will have to built under Hard Brexit if they want to keep the GFA in place so perhaps they should.
User avatar
By Seeker8
#14955191
Did even one brexiter argue before the referendum that Norway was in the E.U? Cause if they did, i didn't see it. Norway is not in the E.U. It didn't say anything about leaving the CU and SM on the ballot paper, therefore the solution to all this crap is just to stay in them.
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