EU-BREXIT - Page 42 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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User avatar
By Beren
#14948412
Seeker8 wrote:What do you all think about this:

I think the Scots will be unfairly neglected (even by the EU, despite their loyalty) if they don't stand up for themselves very strong-mindedly.
By foxdemon
#14948413
JohnRawls wrote:You are severely overestimating EU problems. The only real problems that we have right now: Immigration crysis and anti-EU parties. The greek issue was more or less sorted out(Not in the best way), so is the PIGS situation(Pretty okay). But even if those issues were raging on at full force, it still wouldn't be a massive problem.

You think that we are some kind of sickly person which we are not. The media likes to hype it up but the reality is:

1) We are sanctioning Russia and hurting our economy.
2) We had economic problems with Greece and PIGS.
3) We have immigration issues because of refugees.
4) We have UK leaving the EU.

And even despite that, we are still growing economically. We are actually growing around 2 percent which is decent. (As a whole) We were around 2.5 percent as a whole last year. (Official statistics for US were 2.3 for comparison)



The issue is that the regime in Brussels has lost legitimacy. It is the rising tide of nationalism across the continent that will bring them down. This is all due to an autocratic mentality on the part of the Brussels elites and a lack of their accountability. The resulting policies are causing the backlash. So the problem is the current EU executive itself.

I don’t see this as the end of the EU for the simple reason the nationalists in Europe don’t want the end the EU. The likely outcome is a devolution of power away from Germany and France and to a wider group of European countries.

From the point of view of the EU’s current ruling elite, this is an existential threat. If they want to retain power, they will have to take a softer line and make compromises. I don’t think they will, so I think they are finished.

A hardline with the UK won’t work as the other insurgent states aren’t anti UK. Rather it will just further confirm their view that the Brussels regime is autocratic. Brussels will just lose more legitimacy. London has a freer hand, so they can dig in their heels.
By Istanbuller
#14948415
We should look at Brexit from two points. First one is politically and second one is economically. I make assumptions that the UK will remain under Conservative Party and its tradition.

Britian will be politically better off without being a part of EU. There will be no huge EU bureaucratic barriers. You won't see any Eurocrat trying to boss your elected politicians. Britain will look more democratic and conservative-liberal.

It would be nice to have free trade agreements remaining with continental Europeans. But do not worry if you divorce with "no deal" at your hands. You will take a more globalist approach in trade. This will serve you more different adventures. I think Britain can easily handle this thanks to its imperialist past. You can do whatever you want. There is nothing prevent you. EU's protectionist policies and mixed economy vision will be all gone for ever.

I must again repeat that this scenario is valid under conservatives in charge. I can't say anything if labours takes the power. Labour Party is the main threat to British prosperity.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#14948418
Nonsense wrote:Chequers is a 'dead horse' that Theresa MAY has been flogging since her simple miniscule brain dreamt it up.

It flies in the face of reality because, had she even read Martin Shulz's words back in 2016, when he stated, “Secondly, the fundamental freedoms are inseparable, ie no freedom of movement for goods, capital and services, without free movement of persons.”

Had she even understood them she would have known that 'Chequers' was 'pie-in-the-sky' wishful thinking.

The 'Irish' question is another example of Tory duplicity on BREXIT.

Theresa MAY used British taxpayers money to buy off the DPU, who do NOT want to lose their increasingly fragile political position within Ireland & for whom any act of treachery by MAY would result in an imminent downfall of the Tories in parliament.

Put another way, Theresa MAY is prepared to sacrifice the U.K on the alter of Tory power at Westminster, by sucking up to the DUP.
A possible solution to the BREXIT-Irish question, which is equally an E.U 'problem', is for Labour to promise a 'unification' & 'independence' referendum for the Irish within their next election manifesto.

Should the vote result in 'unification'(it would)then, automatically the 'Irish' question would be resolved, as it would then result in ALL of Ireland being a member of the E.U.
By Istanbuller
#14948421
Nonsense wrote:Martin Shulz's words back in 2016, when he stated, “Secondly, the fundamental freedoms are inseparable, ie no freedom of movement for goods, capital and services, without free movement of persons.”

Why can't Bulgarian and Romanian people have free pass to rest of the EU then? How do they seperate free movements of goods from free movement of people?

Same people argue a coup against elected prime minister of Hungary. Former Belgian prime minister made a call for this to the US.

Continentals have a problem with democracy and liberties.
By Atlantis
#14948423
foxdemon wrote:A hardline with the UK won’t work as the other insurgent states aren’t anti UK. Rather it will just further confirm their view that the Brussels regime is autocratic. Brussels will just lose more legitimacy. London has a freer hand, so they can dig in their heels.


The Brexitters have created the perfect external enemy for the EU which is uniting the continent more effectively than anything the EU can do. There may be rumblings on the populist far-right, but the far-right is more interested in using the EU for its own aims than to destroy it. So, I'm afraid, the Brits are out there on their own. The British government has tried to enlist support from the national populists in Hungary and Poland in its usual game of divide and conquer, but even the populists know which side their bread is buttered and that the manna comes from Brussels and not from London.

And those who are tempted to side with London know only too well that siding with the enemy and pissing on your own family has no happy ending - certainly not if your long-term best interests are tied to the EU single market, which Brexits talks show, even the Brits don't want to do without.

JohnRawls wrote:You think that we are some kind of sickly person which we are not. The media likes to hype it up but the reality is:


There is a common perception that the EU is weak. It is weak in the sense that it needs a consensus to function, but that is ultimately its strength because an empire subjugating dependent states against their will is bound to breed resentment. The EU doesn't go about bombing other countries to smithereens as the Anglo imperialists are in a habit of doing to demonstrate strength, but that is a sign of strength not weakness. The failed interventions in the greater ME have done more to damage Anglo imperialism than anything else.

Thus, in the Tao of politics, the apparently weak are really strong. It can also be of advantage to appear weak because it fools the enemy. @foxdemon has most certainly been fooled.
User avatar
By Seeker8
#14948425
Beren wrote:I think the Scots will be unfairly neglected (even by the EU, despite their loyalty) if they don't stand up for themselves very strong-mindedly.


A lot of the indie movement want something done now (Call a ref or even UDI), but i think the SNP are waiting until there is certainty on brexit. Not sure if that will be November or March. Next ref is going to be hard for the unionists because almost all of their arguments turned out to be lies and no promises were kept.
By Atlantis
#14948426
Istanbuller wrote:Why can't Bulgarian and Romanian people have free pass to rest of the EU then?


What gives you that idea? Bulgarians and Romanians have the same rights of free movement as all other EU citizens. You should be better informed about the EU, which is such an important trading partner for Turkey.

Continentals have a problem with democracy and liberties.


This is rich, coming from a citizen of Erdogan's caliphate.
By Istanbuller
#14948433
They don't have same rights with the rest. Bulgaria and Romania citizens were excluded from free movement of people agreement which is known as Schengen zone. They were declined.

Get your facts straight, dear Atlantis.

Atlantis wrote:This is rich, coming from a citizen of Erdogan's caliphate.

This shouldn't have anything with where i am from. I am not a representative of the state. I am a random person and i have my own political beliefs. Personally, i believe that Turkey is not much less democratic than EU countries.
By layman
#14948435
@Seeker8 do you think an Indy ref could win today?

I think not for a simple reason. People can only take so much uncertainty in their lives. In particular the middle aged and people’s with family’s and mortgages as opposed to young idealists.

Seems Nicola Sturgeon agrees with me for now anyway and is waiting to see how hard the economic hit is. This is key, especially given her party has aditted the oil forecasts were obscenely optimistic and so has replaced them with the highest growth targets in the developed world.

I suspect it will take an extreme brexit impact to allow for a win and that is certainly a possibility.
By Atlantis
#14948437
Nonsense wrote:Chequers is a 'dead horse' that Theresa MAY has been flogging since her simple miniscule brain dreamt it up.

It flies in the face of reality because, had she even read Martin Shulz's words back in 2016, when he stated, “Secondly, the fundamental freedoms are inseparable, ie no freedom of movement for goods, capital and services, without free movement of persons.”

Had she even understood them she would have known that 'Chequers' was 'pie-in-the-sky' wishful thinking.


True, many EU leaders said that May must have known that Chequers wasn't possible with the EU. I guess her willingness to stay in power is so great that she is grasping at straws.

The latest news is that she is planning another snap election for November. I can't really believe it because the Tories are bound to lose. I guess it's a way of putting pressure on the Tories to align behind the Chequers plan.

Corbyn said that Labour would vote against May's final plan, which pretty much condemns this government. I'm looking forward to a Corbyn government in the not too distant future.

The EU's chief negotiator, Barnier, has said that the only conditions under which the EU may agree to an extension of the Article 50 term are changed political conditions in the UK, such as a new government or another referendum. To continue talks with this government is pointless.

Put another way, Theresa MAY is prepared to sacrifice the U.K on the alter of Tory power at Westminster, by sucking up to the DUP.


Isn't that the essence of all Tory leaders? Their willingness to sacrifice the nation for Tory power? The bit about having to suck up to the DUP is indeed new.

A possible solution to the BREXIT-Irish question, which is equally an E.U 'problem', is for Labour to promise a 'unification' & 'independence' referendum for the Irish within their next election manifesto.

Should the vote result in 'unification'(it would)then, automatically the 'Irish' question would be resolved, as it would then result in ALL of Ireland being a member of the E.U.


Labour doesn't have to promise a referendum on Irish unification. Under the Good Friday Agreement, the Irish have a right to reunification whenever there is a majority in favor. Thus, Westminster couldn't refuse it if it wanted.

Anyways, Labour has just come down against another Scottish independence referendum, which doesn't allow it to promote NI independence reunification since it would serve as precedent for Scottish independence.

@Istanbuller, Bulgarians and Romanians have the same rights of free movement to travel, settle and work anywhere they like in the EU. They will become Schengen members once they fulfill the criteria for Schengen membership.

With tens of thousands of political prisoners and most independent journalist either in exile or in prison, Turkey is one of the blackest spots on the map of civil liberties worldwide.
By Istanbuller
#14948438
Scottish independence is a good idea. Scottish people should taste the real world and learn things by hard way.

It fits very well into EU. It has a socialist and leftists political climate. They can accept anything their lovely Eurocrats tell them.

Classical liberalism was born in this country. English own their culture and imperial past to Scottish Enlightenment. Embraced it with open arms. But Scottish people themselves abondoned it.
By B0ycey
#14948439
Sturgeon is keeping her mouth shut because without a deal, Scottish Independence will have the same issues the UK is havIng with the EU and and a damn sight more. With a deal, EU membership would allow them to trade with the UK to the agreed terms.

You cannot walk away from your biggest trading partner without economic loss. It is that simple.
By layman
#14948441
Corbyn has just said he will accept a second referendum if the party members vote for it. This is a significant development.

https://apple.news/AU6-7vfqOTBqL3xzTrD2Ucg

I think this fits in with what @Beren sugguested. He will go against his instincts in this in return for unity within his party (which he needs) and winning over a growing number of concerned remainders in the public who would never vote for him other wise.

He may be finally learning big boy politics ....

Ps @B0ycey

That as well. It’s a bit counter intuitive but this mess is actually bad for the referendum cause. Indy foot soldiers don’t like to face it but the snp leadership are ver canny and see it all too well.
Last edited by layman on 23 Sep 2018 22:04, edited 1 time in total.
By B0ycey
#14948443
layman wrote:Corbyn has just said he will accept a second referendum if the party members vote for it. This is a significant development.

https://apple.news/AU6-7vfqOTBqL3xzTrD2Ucg


A good job too. Corbyn is also a cherry picker. His solution to this problem is remaining in the custom union but with additional benefits and is identical to the checkers plan!!!

UK politicians are thick as shit.
User avatar
By Seeker8
#14948444
layman wrote:@Seeker8 do you think an Indy ref could win today?

I think not for a simple reason. People can only take so much uncertainty in their lives. In particular the middle aged and people’s with family’s and mortgages as opposed to young idealists.

Seems Nicola Sturgeon agrees with me for now anyway and is waiting to see how hard the economic hit is. This is key, especially given her party has aditted the oil forecasts were obscenely optimistic and so has replaced them with the highest growth targets in the developed world.

I suspect it will take an extreme brexit impact to allow for a win and that is certainly a possibility.


Yes i think we would win next time because i think the other side has run out of arguments. Once the debates start all the promises made about Federalism etc. will be brought up and the country will see how much they were lied to. They aren't going to be able to do it a second time.

Then again, god knows what kind of dirty tricks the British state and intelligence services could pull, i wouldn't put anything past them they are so desperate to hold on to Scotland's resources.

----

Labour were against a second EU referendum. A poll just came out showing 85% of labour voters back one and the next day Corbyn and his party says they now support it. Seems like labour just say whatever is most popular with voters, fuck principles. :knife:

I would still vote labour if i lived in England but wow do they have really shitty choices.
By B0ycey
#14948445
layman wrote:I think this fits in with what @Beren sugguested. He will go against his instincts in this in return for unity within his party (which he needs) and winning over a growing number of concerned remainders in the public who would never vote for him other wise.

He may be finally learning big boy politics ....


No, he isn't completely stupid. His supporters that got him into power are not the Decky's of Stalin Socialists but new age liberations. I believe it is 83% of Labour members that want a new referendum.

You do not bite the hand that feeds you.
By layman
#14948446
@B0ycey

I agree his stated position stupid but thickness isn’t the issue actually. The whole brexit idea simply doesn’t work unless you go hyper deregulated as @JohnRawls pointed out.

Politicians are trying to square many circles and play the game and so need to be wrong and contradictory. It’s not being stupid, despite appearances. Even may is not dumb. She has an impossible task she is doing quite poorly.

@Seeker8 the conspiratorial nature of the nationalist inner core is one of the turn offs for a lot of people. Also, talking of lies - those growth forecasts ....
By B0ycey
#14948448
layman wrote:Ps @B0ycey

That as well. It’s a bit counter intuitive but this mess is actually bad for the referendum cause. Indy foot soldiers don’t like to face it but the snp leadership are ver canny and see it all too well.


Scottish Independence is not a question of if but when. While the nation is divided it isn't worth pursuing because a divided nation causes massive conflict like Brexit. But perhaps in a few generations time, as the youth are more pro independence, they will have it. But it is far easier for them to achieve is they are in the same trading system. Otherwise they will regret it like the Brexiteers and Brexit.
By layman
#14948449
@B0ycey pretty much. People are very impatient though and political cycles are short and politicians are plagued with short termism. A very familiar problem.
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