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User avatar
By Nonsense
#15015286
JohnRawls wrote:I am aware that the alt-right/Brexiteers have approximately the same griefs with liberalism as the the left. Hence we have situations like in Italy. What of it?
This will ultimately make the EU stronger. We have problems obviously and we are changing because of it as we try to sort them out. This change is slower than I would like and I really hoped the EU election will accelerate it. It did but not much. I really wished we could get some compromise candidate between the alt-right and the centrists but since alt-right did so badly, we need to settle for a deal between the left and the centre: probably Frans Timmermans.


As with any form of dogma, 'Liberalism', when take to it's logical end, is indistinct from the the Right or Left, they all end up in that bubble called the 'Middle Ground', or as BLAIR called it, the 'Third Way'.

In markets, what makes them move are transactions, big or small, no matter who or what the trade is, in politics, being in that middle ground, is a recipe for nothing happening, simply because all sides end up in a conspiratorial, agreeable state, that betrays democracy & freedom.

There becomes no 'Left', 'Right', only a 'Middle' ground that only politicians occupy, a political 'no-man's land', it's for the populace, a reality that leaves them in the doldrums & it's insanely stupid.
It's stupid, because, what is the point of democracy, when every politician occupies the same ideological space & there is an effective one-party state?

That's what the U.K became under BLAIR-BROWN, they(Labour) thought that they were unelectable before Blair was elected leader, they also thought that they won in 1997 because of BLAIR, with his policies, unbelievable stupidity political analysis, because it was utterly wrong.

Today's Labour Party is occupied by political zombies, people that are intellectually & pschologically dysfunctional.
They make CORBYN look electable, which he very likely will\could be, not because of Labour's policies, but, because of Tory policies.


It's a well known, though little publicised political truth in the U.K, that a party does not win power,but that, a government does lose power, that is what happened with BLAIR, he lied to Labour supporters, by saying that unless they reformed, meaning that they had to accept his 'Third Way', or they would remain in opposition after 13 years of Tory misrule.

So, the Labour Party, that was created by Trade Unionist working class people over generations, was sacrificed on the altar of the mythical, utopian Shangri-La that BLAIR directed them to & everything that Labour had ever strived for, was sacrificed for NOTHING.

As if BLAIR 's objective's were ever of any long term benefit, today's party supporters have learnt nothing from BLAIR's effect on them politically, they too are collectively living in that utopian paradise & will merely create the play ground for another Tory period in office.

They will not deliver a manifesto for the people affected by Tory policies designed specifically against them or their interest if elected, they will only deliver more public spending for which businesses will profit from, but those affected above, will be in exactly the same position at the end of a Labour government, as they were now & any insignificant 'gains' will then be reversed when the Tories regain power.

Only a really radical, revolutionary l(not a John McDonald) Labour government can deliver permament change that benefits people & not even CORBYN has a clue on how to achieve that.

Putting aside the rhetoric, I could furnish them with a truly revolutionary change in this country, but, they would never listen, because they are tone deaf & think theirs is the only way to do things.

They never see the irony in that position though, looking at their website would depress anyone hoping for change with the coming of a Labour government, the fallen just don't appreciate just how far they have fallen & Labour have fell a long long way.
By B0ycey
#15015287
ingliz wrote:Just been watching them, Swinson & Davey, politicking in the Lib-Dem leadership debate hosted by Adam Boulton on Sky.

What a load of shite!

Laughably incoherent.


You're only pissed because she said she wouldn't work with Corbyn. Why would she say she would when currently the Lib Dems are gaining voters from Labour?

Ultimately both Labour and the Lib Dems can expect to be part of a coalition. Although I suspect it will be Labour propping up the Lib Dems than the other way round. :lol:
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#15015291
Nonsense wrote:As with any form of dogma, 'Liberalism', when take to it's logical end, is indistinct from the the Right or Left, they all end up in that bubble called the 'Middle Ground', or as BLAIR called it, the 'Third Way'.

In markets, what makes them move are transactions, big or small, no matter who or what the trade is, in politics, being in that middle ground, is a recipe for nothing happening, simply because all sides end up in a conspiratorial, agreeable state, that betrays democracy & freedom.

There becomes no 'Left', 'Right', only a 'Middle' ground that only politicians occupy, a political 'no-man's land', it's for the populace, a reality that leaves them in the doldrums & it's insanely stupid.
It's stupid, because, what is the point of democracy, when every politician occupies the same ideological space & there is an effective one-party state?

That's what the U.K became under BLAIR-BROWN, they(Labour) thought that they were unelectable before Blair was elected leader, they also thought that they won in 1997 because of BLAIR, with his policies, unbelievable stupidity political analysis, because it was utterly wrong.

Today's Labour Party is occupied by political zombies, people that are intellectually & pschologically dysfunctional.
They make CORBYN look electable, which he very likely will\could be, not because of Labour's policies, but, because of Tory policies.


It's a well known, though little publicised political truth in the U.K, that a party does not win power,but that, a government does lose power, that is what happened with BLAIR, he lied to Labour supporters, by saying that unless they reformed, meaning that they had to accept his 'Third Way', or they would remain in opposition after 13 years of Tory misrule.

So, the Labour Party, that was created by Trade Unionist working class people over generations, was sacrificed on the altar of the mythical, utopian Shangri-La that BLAIR directed them to & everything that Labour had ever strived for, was sacrificed for NOTHING.

As if BLAIR 's objective's were ever of any long term benefit, today's party supporters have learnt nothing from BLAIR's effect on them politically, they too are collectively living in that utopian paradise & will merely create the play ground for another Tory period in office.

They will not deliver a manifesto for the people affected by Tory policies designed specifically against them or their interest if elected, they will only deliver more public spending for which businesses will profit from, but those affected above, will be in exactly the same position at the end of a Labour government, as they were now & any insignificant 'gains' will then be reversed when the Tories regain power.

Only a really radical, revolutionary l(not a John McDonald) Labour government can deliver permament change that benefits people & not even CORBYN has a clue on how to achieve that.

Putting aside the rhetoric, I could furnish them with a truly revolutionary change in this country, but, they would never listen, because they are tone deaf & think theirs is the only way to do things.

They never see the irony in that position though, looking at their website would depress anyone hoping for change with the coming of a Labour government, the fallen just don't appreciate just how far they have fallen & Labour have fell a long long way.


Regarding liberalism:

Liberalism does not necessarily mean a 3rd way. It has already existed for so long with so many flavours that its stupid to call it the middle way by now. The problem with it right now is absence of the USSR. Previously liberalism had to moderate itself to fight the communists but now there is no counter balance to ever growing "Greed". There is a reason why weakening and collapse of the USSR directly coincides with rise of "Greed" in liberalism. Finally Europe, US and rest of the liberal world was unchained from problems of competition with the USSR/Communism in general.

Regarding Blair-Corbyn rant:

User avatar
By JohnRawls
#15015308
skinster wrote:https://twitter.com/WarmongerHodges/status/1145256195969769472







Are you afraid of the Lib Dems for some reason? This could and can easily be prevented if Corbyn commits to fight Brexit and supports 2nd referendum. Heck he will get a lot of tory votes also.
By B0ycey
#15015317
JohnRawls wrote:Are you afraid of the Lib Dems for some reason? This could and can easily be prevented if Corbyn commits to fight Brexit and supports 2nd referendum. Heck he will get a lot of tory votes also.


She is a supporter of Brexit JohnRawls. It makes no sense for her to back the Lib Dems. Although I see both Labour and the Lib Dems in coalition after the next election as I can see no other way either can get into power on their own unless something drastic happens.

As for Corbyn, his stance makes no difference now. There is an alternative and his party are remainers. If the price of coalition is another referendum even Corbyn will accept that I am sure. Swinson is merely politicking when she says she won't work with him. She will have no choice.
User avatar
By Kaiserschmarrn
#15015344
JohnRawls wrote:I do not think it has anything to do with making Trump look bad. Perhaps countries are just more lenient to us seeing how Trump behaves. "What if Europe goes full Trump on us?" crosses their mind.

I don't think making Trump personally look bad plays an important role. It's about taking a public stance in favour of free trade and preempting a possible rise in sentiment against it.


------------------------------------

User avatar
By Nonsense
#15015439
JohnRawls wrote:Regarding liberalism:

Liberalism does not necessarily mean a 3rd way. It has already existed for so long with so many flavours that its stupid to call it the middle way by now. The problem with it right now is absence of the USSR. Previously liberalism had to moderate itself to fight the communists but now there is no counter balance to ever growing "Greed". There is a reason why weakening and collapse of the USSR directly coincides with rise of "Greed" in liberalism. Finally Europe, US and rest of the liberal world was unchained from problems of competition with the USSR/Communism in general.

Regarding Blair-Corbyn rant:



Liberalism & Capitalism goes hand-in-hand don't you think?
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#15015497
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:I don't think making Trump personally look bad plays an important role. It's about taking a public stance in favour of free trade and preempting a possible rise in sentiment against it.


------------------------------------



I hope Uk can straighten itself out and choose something. Tory party is 1/3rd of the problem. The Parliament consists of many more people than just tories. Doesn't matter what it will be. I just want Brexit to be done with. UK and EU have a lot of unattended issues that need to be resolved which Brexit is getting in the way of.

I do favour 2nd referendum if its possible but if you give me a choice right now between No Deal straight away or 2nd referendum in 2 years then my choice will be No Deal straight away.
User avatar
By Kaiserschmarrn
#15015596
JohnRawls wrote:I hope Uk can straighten itself out and choose something. Tory party is 1/3rd of the problem. The Parliament consists of many more people than just tories. Doesn't matter what it will be. I just want Brexit to be done with. UK and EU have a lot of unattended issues that need to be resolved which Brexit is getting in the way of.

I do favour 2nd referendum if its possible but if you give me a choice right now between No Deal straight away or 2nd referendum in 2 years then my choice will be No Deal straight away.

Remainers in parliament are the main impediment. I wouldn't exclude the possibility of the hardliners skipping the second referendum, as it's unclear whether they would actually win it, and starting to advocate for just revoking article 50.
User avatar
By ingliz
#15015651
JohnRawls wrote:my choice will be No Deal straight away.

Why?

The mere threat of a no-deal Brexit is not helping your economy. According to today’s PMI survey, the UK economy has suffered its second-worst month since the financial crisis!


:lol:
By B0ycey
#15015656
ingliz wrote:Why?

The mere threat of a no-deal Brexit is not helping your economy. According to today’s PMI survey, the UK economy has suffered its second-worst month since the financial crisis!


:lol:


He's Estonian.
User avatar
By ingliz
#15015657
B0ycey wrote:He's Estonian.

Ah-ha, that explains it.

Self interest - Estonia will pick up a few crumbs falling from the collapsing UK table.


:)
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#15016754
ingliz wrote:Ah-ha, that explains it.

Self interest - Estonia will pick up a few crumbs falling from the collapsing UK table.


:)


As if you didn't know it before.

I understand your position Ingliz. I just don't think that Brexit is damaging to the EU. There are some negative affects but in the grander scheme of things it makes little difference if the EU is or without the UK. (Actually removing UK veto power is a net benefit) We should focus on something else besides Brexit like solving our own problems and issues both economical and political. It is not necessarily impossible with Brexit looming around but Brexit makes it complicated.

As for the UK itself, it is a choice that the UK needs to make. It seems that Brexit is loosing steam and actually most of the alt-right parties are loosing steam in Europe. So it is realistic that after 1-2 years more Brexit will not be possible anymore. It feels like the UK doesn't want to leave but also doesn't want to cancel Brexit for some reason. There is no real will in the country to unite the "Anti-Brexit" forces besides the lib dems. Lib Dems are perhaps not the best party to do this. Usually this role would be in the Tories hands and recent defeats of many alt-right parties basically come down to a reformed centre-right party appearing and taking the leadership sit most notable of which was Macron.(Was he the first i guess?)
By Rich
#15017280
I very much doubt that Boris, lie in front of the Bulldozers, Johnson will porogue Parliment, but if he did I for one would be quite happy to engage in direct action in order to restore democracy. We could start by occupying major road junctions and rail stations and then if successful moving on to occupy courts, pilice stations, pwoer stations etc.

If Brexit supporters were to attmpt to impede our lawful constituional actions, I would be joyfully willing to engage in robust and energetic "self defence".
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15017502
Rich wrote:I very much doubt that Boris, lie in front of the Bulldozers, Johnson will porogue Parliment, but if he did I for one would be quite happy to engage in direct action in order to restore democracy. We could start by occupying major road junctions and rail stations and then if successful moving on to occupy courts, pilice stations, pwoer stations etc.

If Brexit supporters were to attmpt to impede our lawful constituional actions, I would be joyfully willing to engage in robust and energetic "self defence".



If BoJo were so inclined to suspend parliament, there isn't much that parliament can do about that, for two reasons, one is that the government alone is in control of the business timetable in parliament & only once business is on the table can there be any alteration, intitially by the Speaker.

Secondly, if parliament were put into suspension, MP's or the Speaker could not do anything about it, because, de facto, it's in 'suspension'.

The suggestion that you would engage in "direct action", in order to restore "democracy" seems laudable, until one considers that proposition further because there is a fine line between what one can or cannot do in law, particularly in public.

According to parliament, ther can be 'no deal',there is in fact 'no deal' on the list of options, because parliament has voted 3 times against a 'deal', yet the message still hasn't registered with MP's on what they have done by their own accord.

If you were to say, well, yes, but not MAY's 'deal', it alters nothing, as the E.U have stated, there will be no further negotiations, the matter is closed-FULL STOP.

IMHO, parliament has forfeited the right to decide the method of leaving the E.U, including the legal default date of 31 October, because they have eliminated the alternatives by voting against any of them & the fact that the Withdrawal Agreement has been signed by Theresa MAY on behalf of the government.


In their efforts to stop Brexit, they slammed the doors shut on the exit door by voting against all the options, including the W.A, the result is that they walked into a trap of their own making.
So much for parliament having 'sovereignty' over the matter, because all 'Treaties'(Agreement's) are between governments, not parliaments, which is why the E.U have closed the door on the issue.

Whether HUNT or BoJo think the E.U will re-open the matter, is wishful thinking, the only way of avoiding the £39 BILLION being paid through the W.A, is to leave by default on 31 October.

You do realise just how limited your legal 'options' are in your stated desire to 'restore democracy' are Rich, don't you & I would question the motives of those who have such objectives after remainers have strained every sinew of their anti-'democratic' selves in their desire to remain.

Such people are not democrats, they just want to throw the dice again, hoping that they come up Trumps.

Now, I know that there are millions of young people, who, despite the vote to leave, also want a second referendum when the first decisive referendum has not been made effective by leaving the E.U already, that tells me that they also want democracy, but only when it accords with their own views.

The tens of millions who gave their lives for freedom in two world wars would turn in their graves at the antics of remainers.

Labour's volte-face on it's position will cost it dear at the next election,as it stands, it looks like a two-horse race, between Lib-Dem no hopers & the Brexit Party.
Such is the fallout of reneging on manifesto promises to honour the result of the referendum, you haven't seen anything yet, the local-E.U elections were just a warm up for 2022 & payback time will be bitter-sweet day indeed.
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