[Baff]

@ingliz
Mate, I shoot Bren guns one handed. The English Beef.


Right, so now we know where the power lies.
Now we have established who is the junior in this relationship and who gets the final word.
With the belligerents correctly put in their place, lets see if we have any sensible people left.


Let's attempt to approach what we can reasonably deal for.
You mentioned, "the single market".

I think you said the UK wants a single market.
So let's explore this a little better.

The EU wants the UK to be in it's single market for goods.

The UK wants a single market for services.

So lets trade.


If we get only a single market for goods, then we have no balanced trade. So either we get a single market for goods and services, or we need tariffs.

Whether or not you think the EU should agree this deal or will agree this economic reality.
We seek balanced trade. Not surplus, not deficit. Balance. Mutual gain.

So in order for us to buy EU goods, the EU must buy UK services of equal value.
That is what we seek in a single market.

So we don't want the same single market agreement we just left. Don't bother offering us that again. We prefer tariffs to that.
But if you still want that, we will trade that for what we do want.... which is a single market for services.

Balanced trade people. That is the goal.

Everybody wins.

If you want to make this a game of exploitation or domination, you get exterminated, but if you seek mutual gain, hot damn, you'll get it.

[ingliz]

who is the junior in this relationship

The UK, obviously.

what we do want... is a single market for services.

If you refuse to accept the free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour - the 'four freedoms' - you will not get a single market for services.

We prefer tariffs

Good, because that is what you will get, but it's the non-tariff barriers that will cripple your economy.

Even Turkey could see that. It joined the customs union in 1995.

[foxdemon]

In many cases posters from the Anglosphere seem drunk while posting. Many of them must be drunk while voting as well.

Are you suggesting there is virtue in soberiety? Ridiculous!

@Baff, where is this obsession with nuclear obliteration coming from? If the EU doesn't want us to trade with them for whatever reason, that is up to them. It is the UK who have walked away from the EU, not the other way.

But if 'no deal' occurs and the UK throws its toys out the the pram and has to resort to threats of war, then I will throw away my blue passport. From the offset we have been told that we cannot have our cake and eat it. If people are confused about this, it was because the leavers painted a rosey picture of 'pure riches' during the campaign. The only solution out of this mess in another referendum, but if one doesn't happen, the UK will have to deal with the consequences - whatever that maybe.

I find your lack of defiance disturbing. Perhaps it is time to joined your tea totalling comrades over the channel?

[Baff]

If you refuse to accept the free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour - the 'four freedoms' - you will not get a single market for services.

We accepted all those before and never got a single market for services.
Don't think we'll be falling for that one again.

And this really brings me on to my next point about negotiating with the the EU.
Due to our history there simply is no public perception of the EU as an honest actor.

Deals made are reneged on, once our end has been delivered.
Deals are upheld to the letter of the agreement and not the spirit of it.
And deals tend to be the thin end of the wedge. A trade deal morphs into a political union.

And as such no deal is preferable. We just can't deal with those kind of people outside of a gunpoint arrangement. Because they never keep their end up.
So negotiations aren't starting from a blank canvass. They are starting from the unhappy position of extreme distrust.
A two year transition that turns into another two year transition on and on and on with the underlying purpose of not transitioning at all.

So to get safeguards with the EU to force it to honour any deal it makes rather requires the EU to accept primacy of UK courts over the EU courts, not just in the UK, but in all of the EU member nations.
This isn't realistic, so that just leaves a strong military and the demonstrable will to use it. Examples having to be made.

That is the position we are in.

I think you better get used to the idea of tariffs.




@Boycey, What nuclear obsession? Ingliz raised the prospect, I addressed it.
The EU is an isolated building in Brussels. Smart munitions can raise it to the ground with very little to no collaterol damage. Surgical strike. We are world leaders in this kind of military operation. No one does it better.
Press one button and it is gone.

Threats of war. The EU threatens trade war. Because in their minds they will win one.
We respond with threats of shooting war. Because in our minds we will win one.
I'll let you into an little secret. We will win both.

We negotiate from a position of strength. We play to our perceived strengths and not our perceived weaknesses. And ultimately we have a very strong reputation for military intervention.
If the EU felt it was stronger than us militarily, it would threaten us militarily. That is the nature of who we are dealing with.

Carrot and Stick Boycey. Carrot and Stick.


If the EU doesn't wish to trade with us, I agree, that's up to them. No problem and no war.
If on the other hand the EU prevents others who do wish to trade with us from trading with us, we may come to their defence if it is in our own interests to do so.
The real key to this is the perception of enmity. If the EU seems out to get us, to exploit us, to undermine us, to punish us or to make an example of us, then there will be enmity between us and all that comes with it.

[ingliz]

I think you better get used to the idea of tariffs.

Pffft, we don't give a toss one way or t'other. Tariffs or single market, it's no skin off our nose.

For you, hard Brexit is a different story.

N. Ireland fucked.

'Just in time' manufacturing fucked.

Financial services fucked.

Agriculture fucked...

By looking at dynamics such as innovation, competition, knowledge and human capital, how they will change and what effects this will have on the structural make-up of the UK and European economy, our research shows that the long-lasting impact of Brexit is likely to be more severe than initially anticipated.

Cost to the British economy: £400 billion and 18% wiped off GDP growth by 2030.

[Decky]

I doubt someone from Malta would understand. Just because you microstates have to accept being the puppets of real countries doesn't mean we have to lower ourselves to the same level. We beat the German twice and will crush them a third time if necessary.

[Politiks]

I don't think BREXIT will happen. Honestly, they didn't bought the referendum because they are so arrogant they never thought BREXITer's would win. I hope I'm wrong but imo there will be a second referendum and EU will get the result they want.

[Politiks]

I don't think BREXIT will happen. Honestly, they didn't bought the referendum because they are so arrogant they never thought BREXITer's would win. I hope I'm wrong but imo there will be a second referendum and EU will get the result they want.

It's now absolutely clear as daylight, that the Tories are pulling the wool over the electorate that voted LEAVE in the EU Referendum.
A few months back, the UNDEMOCRATIC business lobby trundled into Downing Street peddling project 'FEAR' on Theresa MAY, since when she has committed this virtually BANKRUPTED nation into future poverty by agreeing with the EU into paying TENS of £ BILLIONS to the EU coffers.

David DAVIES has now let the cat-out-of-the-bag, by saying that the EU - UK BREXIT deal will favour Europe.

The TORIES have now, not only shot themselves in the foot, but their political head as well.

That metaphorical act will destroy them at the next general election, those who voted LEAVE will now opt for the 'nuclear option' of voting en-masse to CORBYN becoming PM.

'Leavers' have been BETRAYED, 'PUNISHMENT' will fit the crime, it's simply a question of time.

The TORIES have literally RUINED THE COUNTRY & they WILL pay the price.

The day Corbyn becomes a PM you know UK doesn't have real elections anymore

[Politiks]

.

[Decky]

The day Corbyn becomes a PM you know UK doesn't have real elections anymore

Lets hope so, once the eternal leader is in place there will be no need for elections anymore, momentum will see to that.

[Politiks]

Lets hope so, once the eternal leader is in place there will be no need for elections anymore, momentum will see to that.

I know you're being sarcastic but you have no idea what is like to live in a full blown Commie disguised as modern day socialist nation. Yes, UK is all in the Social Marxism thing and dictatorship of minorities, but when they manage to elect a PM or President you will see what "I'm fucked" really means.

[Decky]

Nonsense, we will see the rich sent to the gulags where they belong and the working class will finally be free and sovereign. No more German lizards squatting in Buckingham palace ruling over us, no more millionaires living from our labour while doing no work themselves, no more officer slugs getting paid more than real men doing real work in mines, factories and building sites. No more, channel tunnel and no more imported goods (and thus no more unemployment). We will be powerful , happy and in control of our own destinies, just like the workers of the DPRK.

[ingliz]

We beat the German twice and will crush them a third time if necessary.

Don't be silly.

The Americans saved your bacon in the First War; the Russians beat the German in the Second.

[Decky]

Don't be silly.

The Americans saved your bacon in the First War, the Russians in the Second.

Nonsense, the Americans did sweet fuck all in the first war. It was all but won by the time they bothered to turn up. Their main "contribution" to the war was making lots of money selling arms to both sides.

Do you know the RAF killed more fascist civilians in the first 1000 bomber raid than all the British civilians Germany killed in London during the entire blitz? If the EU continues on its present path it will relearn what Britain is capable of.

[ingliz]

It was all but won by the time they bothered to turn up.

No, it was a no-score draw.

[Decky]

Come off it, they Germans were literally starting to starve to death thanks to the Royal Navy blockade, the Huns were done (just as the EU will collapse once it is starved of British money which allows lazy continentals to sleep instead of work). The EU cannot pay for itself once our charity ends.

[Nonsense]

[quote="Decky"]:lol:

Nonsense, the Americans did sweet fuck all in the first war. It was all but won by the time they bothered to turn up. Their main "contribution" to the war was making lots of money selling arms .

Ditto WW2, the UK spent all of it's treasure on American rust buckets(sold 'ex-stock') that were duly sunk by the Kreigsmarine,should have built houses with it instead & kept out of it as we should have with WW1.

[Ter]

@ingliz
I only read two things about Malta, correct me if I am wrong:
1. They are not self sufficient in potable water
2. They kill zillions of migratory birds that are protected elsewhere in Europe.

[ingliz]

@Ter

Wrong, on both counts.

[Ter]

@ingliz

Malta criticised for mass shooting of migratory birds

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27108910

Here's what you need to know about the water supply in Malta (source):

Malta is on the list with Bahrain, Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, the Maldives, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Yemen as being the ten poorest countries globally in terms of water resources per inhabitant.
This is because Malta is surrounded by seawater, has a small catchement (water collection/reservoir) area, has a semi-arid climate (no rain from June to September) and a high population density (one of the highest in the world!)
Malta has below the accepted threshold of 1000 m3 of water per inhabitant, considered to be the minimum to sustain life and agriculture.
Water that is extracted from the ground has a high level of salinity, due to over-extraction. That makes sense: If you extract more water from an aquifer than you are supposed to, seawater rises up and fills it.

http://www.mike-jess.com/2013/05/water- ... malta.html