[Nonsense]

[quote="Atlantis"]We'll just renovate Hadrian's wall and make the British pay for it. Legally it should be possible to keep Scotland and NI in the customs union as autonomous regions of the UK.

I am sorry but you are wrong, it is simply NOT 'possible' to keep Scotland and NI in the customs union as autonomous regions of the UK.
Scotland-NI are part of the UK,they also played their part in being able to vote in the referendum on membership of the EU.

The referendum was not a vote for a political party or for race, it was specifically a vote by INDIVIDUALS EXCERCISING THEIR 'DEMOCRATIC' CHOICE TO DETERMINE THE FUTURE OF THEIR COUNTRY WITH NO 'POLITICAL' FLAVOURINGS INVOLVED.

The 'RESULT'of that choice by individuals however, does determine the outcome for the country as a whole, now that is proper 'democracy'.

It's interesting to note that under Harold WILSON, 'numerically', the vote to 'remain' was very close to what the 'leave' vote was this time around, democratically speaking, the people of this country had no 'democratic' choice on joining the Common Market.
Every individual politician,businessman\woman,member of the public,or the media,such as the BBC, that is against the UK leaving the EU regularly invoke that chestnut,when they know full well that it is impossible.

I spell it out once more, ALL countries that join the EU, whether by dint of being founding nations of the EEC-Common Market or after successive Treaty Amendments, do so on acceptance that the Single Market,Customs Union & Free Movement are inseparably intertwined.
No country can participate in the Single Market or Customs Union without accepting Free Movement or being part of the EU as a member, thereby accepting the Treaty of Maastricht or Lisbon regarding the formation of the EU.

Logic dictates that when a member country leaves the EU, they also leave the Single Market, Customs Union, the jurisprudence, Free Movement rights & obligations hitherto undertaken.

ONLY the legal obligations & other commitments are required to be settled by negotiation.

The ONLY reason that MAY has accepted payment in return for a transitional period is because the BUSINESS LOBBY trundled into Number 10 Downing Street, demanding such a period,BUT, it is NOT that BUSINESS LOBBY that will pay the £50 BILLION+ to the EU, it is public service cuts,the poor pensioners & welfare claimants who have had no benefit increases since 2010.
What REALLY STINKS, is that the Labour Party are really on the TORY government's side in all of this, because they NEVER,EVER CHALLENGE THE TORY GOVERNMENT'S POLICIES & HOW THEY AFFECT THOSE GROUPS.

Remainers are the ones needing a reality check.

[Atlantis]

I was of course joking when I talked about renovating Hadrian's wall, even though I think there is a case for a special status of the UK's autonomous regions. Customs union for Scotland would be difficult, but I think the customs union for NI is the only reasonable solution, if it weren't for the DUP.

Anyways, just a few notes to your comments:

The 'RESULT'of that choice by individuals however, does determine the outcome for the country as a whole, ...

Is this only valid for the UK? If it does apply to other countries, then all Irish individuals should decide about Ireland as a whole. A foreign occupier should not be allowed to carve out part of Ireland where Protestants happened to be in the majority.

now that is proper 'democracy'.

You are not talking about democracy, you are talking about the dictate of the 51%. That is not democracy. To take the chance result of a referendum to determine a country's future for generations to come has nothing to do with the functioning and principles of representative democracy, particularly not at a time of high volatility in voter's opinions. Before the snap election, most Brits told me that May was guaranteed to get a majority of a 100 seats. May got her just reward for her political opportunism. Both the referendum and the snap election are perversions of democracy.

It's interesting to note that under Harold WILSON, 'numerically', the vote to 'remain' was very close to what the 'leave' vote was this time around, democratically speaking, the people of this country had no 'democratic' choice on joining the Common Market.

Now, you lost me. Wilson got a mandate for joining the EEC by a clear majority. Why should a clear majority for joining/remaining be proof that people wanted to leave? And why is a small majority for leaving more valid than a big majority for remaining?

Anyways, both referendums are signs of political opportunism and not signs of democracy. Straight after being elected, Wilson returned the mandate to the people because Labor had campaigned for leaving but really wanted to remain. In order not to fulfill its election promises, Wilson called the referendum. Cameron's opportunism is even more repulsive. All of this has nothing to do with democracy. The favorite means of Hitler and Erdogan were/are referendums. That doesn't make them paragons of democracy.

I spell it out once more, ALL countries that join the EU, whether by dint of being founding nations of the EEC-Common Market or after successive Treaty Amendments, do so on acceptance that the Single Market,Customs Union & Free Movement are inseparably intertwined.

Unlike the UK's institutions, which are frozen in a distant past, the EU is constantly evolving in response to the demands of the times. Everything is possible. The UK can be

- full member,
- part-member,
- single market member,
- customs union member,
- EEA member,
- partner,
- associate,
- FTA partner,
- WTO member.

Everything is possible. We will patiently wait for the UK government to make its choice. What is not possible is, for example, single market membership with the regulatory framework of an FTA, just like it is physically impossible to have your cake and eat it too, even if your government pretends otherwise. That sort of delusion may be excused in small child but not in adults, certainly not in adults who bear the political responsibility for a country. Send them back to kindergarten.

The ONLY reason that MAY has accepted payment in return for a transitional period is because the BUSINESS LOBBY

The only reason the UK will pay is because a nation living by trade cannot afford to not honor its legal obligation, it has entered into during its time as EU member.

Agreeing to the exit bill doesn't give you the right to a future trade agreement or even a transitional period. That is subject to future talks, which, considering the delusions of the UK government, will be a lot harder than what we have seen so far.

[Nonsense]

"Is this only valid for the UK?"

YES, the referendum was UK wide,excluding Eire(Southern Ireland)

Where you live is irrelevent, the result affects ALL of us as one,irrespective of any national boundary.


“now that is proper 'democracy'.”

You are not talking about democracy, you are talking about the dictate of the 51%. That is not democracy. To take the chance result of a referendum to determine a country's future for generations to come has nothing to do with the functioning and principles of representative democracy, particularly not at a time of high volatility in voter's opinions.

What is it with you 'remainers' that you do NOT understand DEMOCRACY.
Whether by a 'General Election' or by 'referendum', DEMOCRACY is decided by MAJORITY VOTING,it is NOT a 'dictate' of the 51%,thats the response of anyone who cannot accept the reality of the situation..

Simple question on the 23 June Referendum Ballot Paper, "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union"?

ONLY '2' answers are possible in which to make an informed choice, 'YES' or 'NO'.

What is it that you do NOT understand or 'accept' about the MAJORITY result of that 'DEMOCRATIC' Answer that voted 'LEAVE' by 51% to 49%.
Does 'YOUR' form of 'democracy' think that '49%' to REMAIN should prevail?

'BREXIT' is a wholly separate question, one that the TORY Party will 'live' to REGRET & NOTHING ON EARTH CHANGES THE MARCH 2019 EXIT FROM THE EU...GET OVER IT.

"Wilson got a mandate for joining the EEC by a clear majority",

NO, the 1975, question was virtually the same as 2016, WILSON did NOT get a 'mandate' for 'joining' the EEC.

We were ALREADY within the EEC, the question was,"Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)"?

The question was about our 'continuing' to remain within the EEC.

Although that referendum was 'non-binding', Wilson indicated that he would accept the decision,whichever way it went.


It is an open question whether we are (Constitutionally)within the EU?

This is because there was no referendum in 1973,only a decision by Edward HEATH to take the country into the EEC.

Why does that matter?

Well, because the Queen was asked to surrender constitutional powers to the EEC, that is ILLEGAL & an ACT OF TREACHERY punishable by DEATH.

The 'Monarch' has no constitutional power to cede to any foreign power,those powers which are held in trust for ever,or until such time as the country is defeated in war.

Those powers are NOT the Monarchs to dispose of,the Queen was ill-advised to do so,it was Ted Heath the decision on a young & naive monarch to do so.

"- part-member,
- single market member,
- customs union member, ".

NO, that will not be allowed by the 27, a country can ONLY do so as a member of the EU, that is the RULE.
The only reason the UK will pay is because a nation living by trade cannot afford to not honor its legal obligation, it has entered into during its time as EU member.

Agreeing to the exit bill doesn't give you the right to a future trade agreement or even a transitional period.
TRUE.BUT, WTO rules would apply in continuation of trade, we can reciprocate any Customs charges in order to achieve current parity & 'fairness'.



That is subject to future talks, which, considering the delusions of the UK government, will be a lot harder than what we have seen so far".


"

[JohnRawls]

I was of course joking when I talked about renovating Hadrian's wall, even though I think there is a case for a special status of the UK's autonomous regions. Customs union for Scotland would be difficult, but I think the customs union for NI is the only reasonable solution, if it weren't for the DUP.

Anyways, just a few notes to your comments:


Is this only valid for the UK? If it does apply to other countries, then all Irish individuals should decide about Ireland as a whole. A foreign occupier should not be allowed to carve out part of Ireland where Protestants happened to be in the majority.


You are not talking about democracy, you are talking about the dictate of the 51%. That is not democracy. To take the chance result of a referendum to determine a country's future for generations to come has nothing to do with the functioning and principles of representative democracy, particularly not at a time of high volatility in voter's opinions. Before the snap election, most Brits told me that May was guaranteed to get a majority of a 100 seats. May got her just reward for her political opportunism. Both the referendum and the snap election are perversions of democracy.


Now, you lost me. Wilson got a mandate for joining the EEC by a clear majority. Why should a clear majority for joining/remaining be proof that people wanted to leave? And why is a small majority for leaving more valid than a big majority for remaining?

Anyways, both referendums are signs of political opportunism and not signs of democracy. Straight after being elected, Wilson returned the mandate to the people because Labor had campaigned for leaving but really wanted to remain. In order not to fulfill its election promises, Wilson called the referendum. Cameron's opportunism is even more repulsive. All of this has nothing to do with democracy. The favorite means of Hitler and Erdogan were/are referendums. That doesn't make them paragons of democracy.


Unlike the UK's institutions, which are frozen in a distant past, the EU is constantly evolving in response to the demands of the times. Everything is possible. The UK can be

- full member,
- part-member,
- single market member,
- customs union member,
- EEA member,
- partner,
- associate,
- FTA partner,
- WTO member.

Everything is possible. We will patiently wait for the UK government to make its choice. What is not possible is, for example, single market membership with the regulatory framework of an FTA, just like it is physically impossible to have your cake and eat it too, even if your government pretends otherwise. That sort of delusion may be excused in small child but not in adults, certainly not in adults who bear the political responsibility for a country. Send them back to kindergarten.


The only reason the UK will pay is because a nation living by trade cannot afford to not honor its legal obligation, it has entered into during its time as EU member.

Agreeing to the exit bill doesn't give you the right to a future trade agreement or even a transitional period. That is subject to future talks, which, considering the delusions of the UK government, will be a lot harder than what we have seen so far.

@Nonsense
@ingliz
@Rugoz

Just heard that the DUP is seriously threatening to withdraw from the coalition with the Tories if they cave in to the EU demand on Ireland border.

Boy did the snap election bite May in the ass.

The pound is going to take a submarine dive in December. Parity with the Euro perhaps ? (Prolly not thought)

[phil752]

Let us hope the DUP, makes the bargaining less one sided.

[phil752]

Well here is a solution : if the people of Gibraltar like the EU more than the Motherland, they can be absorbed into Spain.
Ariba !

I dont think the people of Gibratar would welcome that, do you?

[Ter]

I dont think the people of Gibratar would welcome that, do you?

No, I don't.
That was my point exactly: they do not want to leave the EU and they do not want to be absorbed by Spain. They will have to chose between those two possibilities though because there are no other ones.

[Atlantis]

It looks like the Brexit campaign is rapidly running out of steam. I hope they manage to keep going at least until March 2019 so there is no question about having to readmit them on their current terms. They can always reapply to join after Brexit.



The same poll suggests that the Tory vote is collapsing and Labor is surging ahead. How about another of those little snap-elections, you love so much, Theresa?

Lab 45% +5
Con 37% -5
Lib 6% -1
UKIP 4% +2
Nats 3% 0
Grn 1% -1

[Nonsense]

My instinct of backing Brexit has proved right. So far, things go according to plan. And the beauty of it: the Brits did it to themselves.

My opinion on BEXIT-'Leave' is that the true 'British' amongst us have been side-lined for too long,they opted for the 'NUCLEAR OPTION' & they will never change their views on politics again, just to suit the political message of political parties.

Left-Wingers DENY that mass-uncontrolled migration from europe & elsewhere has led to displacement in job opportunities,that migrants come here for anything else other than to work & improve their lot(at the expense of 'British' job-seekers & taxpayers).
The grossly excessive demand for housing,health,welfare,NHS, coupled with this government's 'Austerity' (read economic warfare against the 'British' displaced younger generation) effects elude these left-wing 'elitist' ignoranus's.

ALL of the above(I believe)led the 'leavers' to say to themselves & their families to declare that there is no hope for them or their families in the future of this country, SO,we will F**K them so they,the out-of-touch 'elite' "I'm all right on the EU
gravy train 'Remainers' feel some of the pain of the 'British' displaced by the Westminster politicians.

NOTHING but a RADICAL 'BRITAIN-FIRST' agenda will make them vote for any political party in future & when they do they will vote for disruption at all times.

I think people in America voted for TRUMP, because he is anti-establishment,I judge politicians by what they do, NOT what they say.

[Atlantis]

@Nonsense, Brexit never was about immigration. The Leave campaign only started to exploit latent xenophobia by conflating the refugee crisis with immigration during the last few months before the referendum. The problems the UK has with EU immigration are entirely due to domestic politics: Blair waved the EU provision for a transitional phase restricting immigration from new members for 7 years. Blair, encouraged by the BoE, thought Britain could benefit from immigration because of the "first mover's" principle. And true enough, the UK had above average growth for some years.

Moreover, EU immigration would have gone down anyways as living standards increase in Eastern Europe. I live in one of the poorest regions of the EU with unemployment at around 9%. Still, we have to fly in workers from Thailand, Pakistan and Bangladesh to do the manual labor the locals no longer want to do.

During the 60s and 70s, Germany had almost 14 millions guest workers from the South of Europe. As a result, living standards in the South of Europe have increased to the point that they need to import workers from the global South outside the EU.

Freedom of movement in the single market has worked remarkably well to create a vast and prosperous market beneficial to all. We won't allow Britain to destroy this.

The Brexit referendum from the very beginning was about cementing British exceptionalism in the EU. The UK didn't want to join the euro but it wanted control over the eurozone so as to protect the financial interests of the City and its associated tax havens. The UK had the best of both world's. Post Brexit, the UK will have the worst of both worlds. That's what excessive greed does to people and countries.

[JohnRawls]

@Rugoz

What's up buddy? Why is UK caving in to all our requirements ?

a) Money - Check
b) Ireland - Double Check.
c) Citizen Rights - TRIPLE CHECK.



Brexit supporters and their red lines are

@Nonsense

What is up buddy? But you said NI can't possibly stay in the EU basically? What about Scotland which will request this any minute now ?

[Atlantis]

Customs union for Scotland would be difficult, but I think the customs union for NI is the only reasonable solution, if it weren't for the DUP.

Looks like NI might even stay in the single market.

UK to 'concede' on island of Ireland trading rules

The UK has conceded to EU negotiators that there will be no divergence of the rules covering the EU single market and customs union on the island of Ireland post Brexit, according to a draft negotiating text seen by RTÉ News.

The concession, if accepted by the Irish Government, would have far reaching implications for how closely Northern Ireland remains bound to EU structures.

But it remains an open question if the final text will be agreeable to both the Irish and British governments.

The discussions are still ongoing amid signs that the British government is having difficulties with the latest version of the text on Ireland.

A special meeting of the Cabinet is reviewing discussions with the British government this morning.

According to two well-placed sources, the text that negotiators have been working on intensively over the past five days, spell out that the UK will agree that on either side of the border there would be no divergence on EU single market and customs union rules after Brexit.

This has long been the Irish Government's preferred solution for avoiding a hard border.

The text says that the UK has agreed that the Good Friday Agreement will be protected.

The text on Ireland is part of an overall paper entitled The Joint Report from the Commission and the United Kingdom Negotiators on Progress.

The paper covers all three issues of contention: the financial settlement, EU citizens rights, and the Irish border.

The text, which was worked on intensively over the weekend and into the early hours of the morning, contained the following paragraph on Ireland:

"In the absence of agreed solutions the UK will ensure that there continues to be no divergence from those rules of the internal market and the customs union which, now or in the future, support North South cooperation and the protection of the Good Friday Agreement."

It was one of around 100 paragraphs in all on the three issues, in a text which runs from four to five pages.

It is understood the text on Ireland was updated to refer to "continued regulatory alignment" on the island of Ireland.

If NI is the only part of the UK to stay in the single market, that could be very beneficial to NIs economy. If the DUP were to block the deal, that might therefore not be very popular in NI.

@Rugoz

What's up buddy? Why is UK caving in to all our requirements ?

a) Money - Check
b) Ireland - Double Check.
c) Citizen Rights - TRIPLE CHECK.



Brexit supporters and their red lines are

It has been said that Brexit talks are accession talks in reverse. When a country wants to join it has to fulfill all the EU conditions for membership. Now, the Brits have to fulfill all the EUs conditions for leaving.

The EU has handled this extremely well, which gives lie to the narrative that the EU is incompetent.

Edit: And if the Brexitters think it'll be all plain sailing from now on, they are in for a rude surprise. Barnier has already set the stage for the next phase to effectively make it impossible for Brexit Britain to drag the EU into a race to the bottom by undercutting social and environmental standards.

Brussels may include 'punishment clause' in post-Brexit trade deal

[JohnRawls]

Looks like NI might even stay in the single market.

UK to 'concede' on island of Ireland trading rules



If NI is the only part of the UK to stay in the single market, that could be very beneficial to NIs economy. If the DUP were to block the deal, that might therefore not be very popular in NI.



It has been said that Brexit talks are accession talks in reverse. When a country wants to join it has to fulfill all the EU conditions for membership. Now, the Brits have to fulfill all the EUs conditions for leaving.

The EU has handled this extremely well, which gives lie to the narrative that the EU is incompetent.

Time until Scotlands request the same deal as NI 1,2,3....

[Atlantis]

Time until Scotlands request the same deal as NI 1,2,3....

The dominoes will come tumbling down until the last vestiges of the empire are leveled to the ground.

[JohnRawls]

The dominoes will come tumbling down until the last vestiges of the empire are leveled to the ground.

The Free Counties Of England Minus London will be the UKs name after Brexit

[Atlantis]

The Free Counties Of England Minus London will be the UKs name after Brexit

And they will all be welcome to join the EU, one at a time. Just like Trump wanted to deal with EU countries, one at a time.

If Barnier can pull this one off, he will become the new patron saint of Ireland. This could be a big step towards Irish reunification. At least, Brexit will have achieved something.

[Seeker8]

Good news. I hope Ireland reunites. Unionists will be fucking raging.

Independence support in Scotland polling at 47% currently, I wonder how it will go if NI are staying in single market + customs union and Scotland is denied.

[Seeker8]

I still think this whole thing could be cancelled.

[B0ycey]

I still think this whole thing could be cancelled.

I think it will be cancelled actually. Hunt has given a stealth warning to the DUP that unless they back May it will be. She has obviously agreed to something to get to the next stage in negotiations, but will the DUP back it? If they don't its over.

[Atlantis]

I wonder how it will go if NI are staying in single market + customs union and Scotland is denied.

Sturgeon will demand the same:

Meanwhile, Nicola Sturgeon responded to reports that Northern Ireland and the Republic could maintain regulatory alignment by saying there was no good reason that Scotland could not do the same with the EU and "effectively stay in the single market".

The Scottish First Minister tweeted: "If one part of UK can retain regulatory alignment with EU and effectively stay in the single market (which is the right solution for Northern Ireland) there is surely no good practical reason why others can't."

Arlene Foster: Northern Ireland must leave the EU on the same terms as the rest of the UK