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By snapdragon
#15042863
Beren wrote:But what do you want a confirmatory referendum on? ingliz seems to suggest there could be one on May's deal, but he finished his post with a smiley rather than some useful links or something unfortunately.


Oh, right. Bojo has got a deal. It's worse than May's.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15042864
Beren wrote:What question again?

:lol: :lol: I stand corrected. :eek:
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15042867
snapdragon wrote:Oh, right. Bojo has got a deal. It's worse than May's.



If that's the case then, suppose that when the vote on it happens, that parliament passes it, when that happens, what then on your opinion that it's worse than MAY's deal that was rejected 3 times?...just saying. :hmm:
User avatar
By Beren
#15042869
snapdragon wrote:Oh, right. Bojo has got a deal. It's worse than May's.

He's got a deal but how exactly would you mean to confirm it if it doesn't pass parliament?
By Presvias
#15042872
Beren wrote:He's got a deal but how exactly would you mean to confirm it if it doesn't pass parliament?


I've given up with my fellow Brit remainers Beren. You can see why. :lol:
User avatar
By ingliz
#15042874
Beren wrote:useful links or something

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019 Article 1 Clause 4

requesting an extension of that period to 11.00pm on 31 January 2020 in order to debate and pass a Bill to implement the agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union, including provisions reflecting the outcome of inter-party talks as announced by the Prime Minister on 21 May 2019, and in particular the need for the United Kingdom to secure changes to the political declaration to reflect the outcome of those inter-party talks.

Which will pass with a confirmatory referendum attached.


:)
User avatar
By Beren
#15042879
ingliz wrote:European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019 Article 1 Clause 4

requesting an extension of that period to 11.00pm on 31 January 2020 in order to debate and pass a Bill to implement the agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union, including provisions reflecting the outcome of inter-party talks as announced by the Prime Minister on 21 May 2019, and in particular the need for the United Kingdom to secure changes to the political declaration to reflect the outcome of those inter-party talks.


Which will pass with a confirmatory referendum attached.


:)

I've actually found that, but it says the PM has to ask for an extension to give time to parliament to discuss and pass May's deal, so there could be a confirmatory vote only if May's deal is passed. So there isn't any withdrawal agreement to be confirmed by a referendum at the moment.
By snapdragon
#15042881
Beren wrote:He's got a deal but how exactly would you mean to confirm it if it doesn't pass parliament?


The decision would be either put the deal to the people, or to hold a GE first.

The problem with holding a GE first is that it could very well result in a Tory government, who support the deal.

It's too dangerous, in my opinion.

The deal doesn't need to be passed to hold a confirmatory referendum on whether to pass it or leave.

Let the people decide. Don't just pass the bloody thing.

edit: May's deal is dead in the water. This is a new, much worse deal.
User avatar
By Beren
#15042884
snapdragon wrote:The deal doesn't need to be passed to hold a confirmatory referendum on whether to pass it or leave.

It wouldn't be a confirmatory vote then, it would be a pre-legislative referendum as the one held three years ago was. So would you support a complete change in British constitutionalism and let legislation be done by referendums basically?
By snapdragon
#15042887
Beren wrote:It wouldn't be a confirmatory vote then, it would be a pre-legislative referendum as the one held three years ago was. So would you support a complete change in British constitutionalism and let legislation be done by referendums basically?


It would be confirmatory because it would consist of amendments to the questions asked in the original referendum.
User avatar
By terrapinsfan
#15042892
I just see a bunch of posts saying the deal is bad but not explaining why it's bad. The only thing I have seen is the Leave camp objecting to not getting control of the territorial waters for fishing. It does seem odd that Northern Ireland is still considered part of the EU customs union but I guess that was the only way to solve the border issue. I didn't see if there was a designated time period for that.
User avatar
By Beren
#15042895
snapdragon wrote:It would be confirmatory because it would consist of amendments to the questions asked in the original referendum.

But the original referendum wasn't confirmatory too. It would be confirmatory if there were something to confirm, such as parliamentary legislation or something, but that's exactly you'd want to replace with a referendum basically.
User avatar
By BeesKnee5
#15042901
My view
Most likely outcome is boris deal comes before the house and an amendment is tabled to add the need for an extension request and referendum to the ratification process.

This may swing enough MPs to vote for it.

Then Johnson's Queens speech is voted on next week and defeated, followed by a vote of no confidence.

Ideally this will end up with a referendum and general election on the same day to get all this uncertainty resolved until the transition period ends in 2022.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15042910
snapdragon wrote:The decision would be either put the deal to the people, or to hold a GE first.

The problem with holding a GE first is that it could very well result in a Tory government, who support the deal.

It's too dangerous, in my opinion.

The deal doesn't need to be passed to hold a confirmatory referendum on whether to pass it or leave.

Let the people decide. Don't just pass the bloody thing.

edit: May's deal is dead in the water. This is a new, much worse deal.



So, you don't want an election before another referendum, because the Tories might win & therefore implement the deal.

Just 'bank' that for a moment, because CORBYN also wants another referendum,also a 'confirmatory'(yeah! right-who does he think he's kidding?)with the 'option' to Remain, in other words, he wants to overturn the 2016 referendum result, without fighting an election on the issue, for he knows(take your comment out of the 'bank') that he would lose that election & which he doesn't have a hope of winning anyway.

By that determination to frustrate Brexit to his own ends, he is more than willing to to disenfranchise the 17.4 million people who voted 'Leave' & the lying 'democrat', has the gall to call Labour, a 'democratic' organisation, he is simply unbelievable in every imaginable way.
User avatar
By Kirillov
#15042927
terrapinsfan wrote:I just see a bunch of posts saying the deal is bad but not explaining why it's bad. The only thing I have seen is the Leave camp objecting to not getting control of the territorial waters for fishing. It does seem odd that Northern Ireland is still considered part of the EU customs union but I guess that was the only way to solve the border issue. I didn't see if there was a designated time period for that.


The new deal stipulates that the UK won't be required to maintain parity with the EU in terms of workers' rights and environmental regulations. Since the current cabinet is stuffed full of disaster capitalists, expect to see environmental regulations slashed, along with regulations related to trade unions, workplace health and safety, and wages (at the very least). Basically, the slogan of this deal might as well be 'All power to the corporations!'
By Hindsite
#15042959
terrapinsfan wrote:I just see a bunch of posts saying the deal is bad but not explaining why it's bad. The only thing I have seen is the Leave camp objecting to not getting control of the territorial waters for fishing. It does seem odd that Northern Ireland is still considered part of the EU customs union but I guess that was the only way to solve the border issue. I didn't see if there was a designated time period for that.

Nigel Farage slams Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal
Oct 17, 2019

Nigel Farage discusses Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal and why the House of Commons should reject it.

New Brexit deal agreed but DUP refuses support - BBC News
Oct 17, 2019

In a statement, the Democratic Unionist Party, which the government relies on for support in key votes, said: "These proposals are not, in our view, beneficial to the economic well-being of Northern Ireland and they undermine the integrity of the Union."

It added: "Saturday's vote in Parliament on the proposals will only be the start of a long process to get any Withdrawal Agreement Bill through the House of Commons."

Brexit is second-worst deal in history: Nigel Farage
https://video.foxbusiness.com/v/6095701 ... show-clips
User avatar
By ingliz
#15042977
Beren wrote:something to confirm

May's deal, all 585 pages

or

Boris's deal, a few pages more.

(Both agreements acceptable to the EU. And both texts legally certain, so you cannot say 'they' didn't know what they were voting for.)

v.

Remain.


:)
By snapdragon
#15042987
It seems the deal is unlikely to be passed on Saturday, forcing Johnson to ask for another extension.

The EU will likely grant one until probably next summer.

After that, who the bloody hell knows? That deal is terrible.

Jeremy Corbyn is being urged by his backbenchers to support a second referendum.

According to Nonsense, he's agreed to do that, which is great. I can't find any confirmation of it.
By Atlantis
#15042990
Hindsite wrote:Nigel Farage discusses Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal and why the House of Commons should reject it.


Good! If Farage is against the deal, he won't form an electoral alliance with Boris, which means that the Leave vote will be split between the Brexit Party and the Tories and that the Remain vote will win in the GE.

snapdragon wrote:Jeremy Corbyn is being urged by his backbenchers to support a second referendum.

According to Nonsense, he's agreed to do that, which is great. I can't find any confirmation of it.


I think it's been official Labour policy to support a 2nd referendum for some time now.

There has to be a GE because the government doesn't have a majority. Having failed to get the UK out off the EU by Oct. 31st, Boris' reputation will be "in a ditch" in the eyes of Brexit hardliners. That'll help Remain parties win the GE and call a 2nd referendum, which could be a choice between Boris's deal and revoking Art. 50, or a choice between a Labour deal of a Customs Union and revoking Art. 50.
By Rich
#15042995
Just when the Kurds though they had it in the bag,

Just when the Syrian Kurds thought they had it wrapped in the world's biggest suckers competition, out of no where comes the DUP. The Syrian Kurds at least faced a very trick situation. The Kurds are trying to create a state that has never existed in the teeth of opposition of all the most powerfull players, where as the DUP merely had to avoid losing a state created in alliance with the supremely powerful British Tory party. The DUP played a very significant part in creating the bus they are now being thrown under.

However before we laugh too much at them, realise this is what replacement looks like. The underlying weakness of the DUP is that they've just been outbred. We may soon find out that there's worse fates than being outbred by Irish Catholics.
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