[SolarCross]

For those that don't know CANZUK is an acronym of Canada Australia New Zealand United Kingdom, the big four of the core commonwealth realms. These four countries have a common language in English, a common head of state in the form of QE2, very similar political and legal systems and are populated by people with a closely common ancestry. Given this it is surprising they are not more closely integrated than they are. One reason they might not be is the geographical distances between them are pretty significant but arguably in the modern world where modern telecommunications provide near instant information transfer across the world and physical goods and beings move by air and sea all over the world relatively rapidly and in huge volumes so the logistics of geographical distances have never been so easily mitigated.

Now that the UK is leaving the EU is it time to think of CANZUK in similar terms? What kind of integration would be beneficial and what should be avoided? And what of the other 12 or so commonwealth realms, like Jamaica and Barbados? Or what about other countries like Norway, Iceland and Switzerland which have not joined the EU, could the Commonwealth Realms provide a better union for them?

Myself I think I would advocate for more military integration and more freedom of movement for co-citizens and also freedom of movement of goods, but I wouldn't necessarily look at a single regulatory framework, a common currency or have big federal bureaucracies.

[B0ycey]

Why are you against the UK being part of the EU if you want to be part of something similar? It would make more sense to be part of the biggest economic union on the planet than a pact of emerging nations. Especially as our foreign trade is dominated with the EU nations.

Nonetheless, do you not think the same issues would arise? Aussies stole my job!!! for example. Or more likely Poms stole my job as everyone here is going south. How can you justify such thinking?

[SolarCross]

Why are you against the UK being part of the EU if you want to be part of something similar? It would make more sense to be part of the biggest economic union on the planet than a pact of emerging nations. Especially as our foreign trade is dominated with the EU nations.

Nonetheless, do you not think the same issues would arise? Aussies stole my job!!! for example. Or more likely Poms stole my job as everyone here is going south. How can you justify such thinking?

The UK itself is a kind of (mini) superstate because it is a unitary state composed of two kingdoms, a principality (Wales) and of course Northern Ireland. I am not necessarily against super-states. I didn't really have a problem with the EU as far as the common market goes and I don't really mind poles turning up en masse every summer to pick fruits. The EU only became a problem when its overlords signalled a desire to eventually become a unitary state, something a bit like a European version of the USA. Now I don't have a problem with that necessarily either but I don't think it is compatible with the UK's unwritten constitution. I think the only way the EU could work for the UK was if all the EU countries adopted QE2 as their sovereign.

[Heisenberg]

I'm up for it so long as we exclude the Aussies and exile Justin Trudeau to the far, far north of Canada.

[SolarCross]

I'm up for it so long as we exclude the Aussies and exile Justin Trudeau to the far, far north of Canada.

I understand exiling Trudeau but what have you got against Aussies?

[B0ycey]

Perhaps you can justify it then. To some extent anyways.

Although for the UK to compete with the US or China in the future, being part of a European super state makes perfect sense to me. I see a life time of US poodle shadowing for the UK as Europe breaks ties and looks East. Only time will tell.

[Heisenberg]

I understand exiling Trudeau but what have you got against Aussies?

They play a silly game where they wear sleeveless tops called "Guernseys" and kick a ball at a goal that is literally impossible to miss. And even if they do miss, they get a point for trying.

If they scrap AFL, maybe they can join the club of civilised nations.

[SolarCross]

Perhaps you can justify it then. To some extent anyways.

Although for the UK to compete with the US or China in the future, being part of a European super state makes perfect sense to me. I see a life time of US poodle shadowing for the UK as Europe breaks ties and looks East. Only time will tell.

We actually are not the US's poodle though, that is just a baseless smear, a psychological manipulation aimed at playing on British pride to agitate for a break in the US & UK cooperation. We have a close alignment of military interests following on from WW2 and the Cold War, there were eminently good reasons for that. NATO remains a useful alliance for the UK. The US has never pushed us to give up our autonomy, our currency or any of the other things the EU demands. If anything we were in danger of becoming the EU's poodle or cash cow.

[Rancid]

Does the commonwealth actually mean something other than countries that are former colonies?

[Heisenberg]

Not really. Although, for reasons that remain a mystery to me, Mozambique (a former Portuguese colony) and Rwanda (formerly Belgian) are members as well.

[B0ycey]

Does the commonwealth actually mean something other than countries that are former colonies?

It is more something to do with the Queen being head of state and a community of political cooperation. But it most definately is a system from colonialism. But while each member states remains committed to it, I cannot justify my loathing of it as it is not my decision to make.

[Ter]

Does the commonwealth actually mean something other than countries that are former colonies?

I have been pondering that question myself for some decades now.
I resided in ex-British colonies and this is what I found out:

-they call each other's embassies "High Commissions" and each other's Ambassadors "High Commissioner"
-they drink tea, play cricket and queue in line where appropriate.
-they have all kinds of officials like secretary General of the Commonwealth and they get together from time to time and say good things about cooperation, human rights and such.
-naughty members get suspended from it.

That was the result of my research so far.

[SolarCross]

Does the commonwealth actually mean something other than countries that are former colonies?

There are two commonwealths actually.

One is called the Commonwealth of Nations and has no less than 53 member countries!! It is a very loose association though more like a mini UN, and even less so, than a giant US. QE2 is the head of this association but for most of the countries in it she is not the the head of state. The most noticeable feature of the Commonwealth of Nations is the Commonwealth Games which is something a bit like the Olympics I suppose.

The other commonwealth are the Commonwealth Realms these are the states which all have QE2 as head of state. This is also a very loose association, the most integrated aspect of it would be some security stuff, other than having the same head of state of course. There are something like 15 or 16 commonwealth realms.

[Varilion]

This is an interesting question. From a UK perspective it would be advantageous to get a privileged access to raw materials from the former colonies and to their markets, but this has to be budgeted with what the "CANZ" may want in return. Plus for a united government (like US or even at EU-Degree) you need to have some common policies that you want to implement. The EU works around the fact that the regions of the "Blue Banana" have common underlying interests (even when people do no realize it), while peripheral regions are already sources of most of the headaches.

[SolarCross]

This is an interesting question. From a UK perspective it would be advantageous to get a privileged access to raw materials from the former colonies and to their markets, but this has to be budgeted with what the "CANZ" may want in return. Plus for a united government (like US or even at EU-Degree) you need to have some common policies that you want to implement. The EU works around the fact that the regions of the "Blue Banana" have common underlying interests (even when people do no realize it), while peripheral regions are already sources of most of the headaches.

Of the four the UK is the military heavy weight and a nuclear power too. We are still something of a culture producer: music, books, films, tv series etc. But engineering products in general are probably our main thing, that and booze. The UK has the largest population by a long way having more people than the other three combined. CANZ may have use for skilled labour who speak the local language and operate under a very similar culture.

http://www.worldstopexports.com/united- ... p-exports/

--------

Some interesting comparisons:

CANZUK together have more territory than Russia! 18mil km^2 vs 17mil km^2
CANZUK together has almost as many people as Russia! 130mil vs 144mil
CANZUK together has a GDP more than 3x as much as Russia! $6 trillion vs $1.7 trillion

CANZUK has nearly twice as much territory as the US though only half as many people and only about a third of the GDP.

CANZUK is potentially a great power of comparable scale as the US or Russia.

[Varilion]

True what you say, but UK's main trading partner is currently the EU, while Canadian -besides cultural ties - are more linked to the US than to Britain. The aussies and the kiwi are importing cheap stuff from China and engineering stuff from Japan. As for security aspects they are all under US protection; what Britain could offer is for instance to foster Australian foreign policy more than what the US do. But does Britain has the resources and the will to do that?

[SolarCross]

True what you say, but UK's main trading partner is currently the EU, while Canadian -besides cultural ties - are more linked to the US than to Britain. The aussies and the kiwi are importing cheap stuff from China and engineering stuff from Japan. As for security aspects they are all under US protection; what Britain could offer is for instance to foster Australian foreign policy more than what the US do. But does Britain has the resources and the will to do that?

The EU is so in part at least because the EU common market reduced the bureaucratic overhead on international trade, if CANZUK did a comparable thing then likely a comparable thing would develop between CANZUK. Getting out of the way of commerce isn't the main job of governments though, the main job is security, so partly it doesn't matter if the UK trades more with the EU, Canada with the US and all of us buy our cheap crap from China.

So the real question is does CANZUK make sense as a military block? Currently we are all members of NATO and of course the US is the heaviest weight military within that alliance. Hopefully that situation will remain for the foreseeable future, however it may not. It may happen that Canada becomes threatened by the US, it wouldn't be the first time (see the war of 1812). It may happen that China threatens Australia and it may happen that the US despite its close business ties with China chooses to side with the little guy or they may say "oh well you are on your own kid". It is clear though that the UK would not abandon our closest kin to the wolves or be wolf among them.

The security that NATO affords all NATO members has made all CANZUK countries rather negligent on martial matters, the UK included. However the UK still retains a bank of enormous expertise in military matters, drawing from a very long, prolific and, dare I say, fairly glorious martial history. The UK could be the seed bank for a new global policemen like the US but more civilised and less belligerent. Perhaps remaining in NATO but not dependant on it too much either. The US military industrial complex is a bit tarnished these days perhaps a bit unfairly. Would it really be in the interests of CANZ to overly dependent on it for their security?

[Rugoz]

The EU is so in part at least because the EU common market reduced the bureaucratic overhead on international trade, if CANZUK did a comparable thing then likely a comparable thing would develop between CANZUK.

No it wouldn't, because the distance between the CANZUK countries is very large, which is highly relevant when it comes to trade flows. There's a reason the gravity model of trade describes bilateral trade flows well.

So the real question is does CANZUK make sense as a military block? Currently we are all members of NATO and of course the US is the heaviest weight military within that alliance. Hopefully that situation will remain for the foreseeable future, however it may not. It may happen that Canada becomes threatened by the US, it wouldn't be the first time (see the war of 1812). It may happen that China threatens Australia and it may happen that the US despite its close business ties with China chooses to side with the little guy or they may say "oh well you are on your own kid". It is clear though that the UK would not abandon our closest kin to the wolves or be wolf among them.

Silly. The CANZUK countries all have rather different threats and security interests. Needless to say none of them are capable of projecting the necessary force around the globe. They cannot protect each other against threats like Russia or China (or the US for that matter).

[SolarCross]

No it wouldn't, because the distance between the CANZUK countries is very large, which is highly relevant when it comes to trade flows. There's a reason the gravity model of trade describes bilateral trade flows well.

Long distances doesn't stop people buying crap from China. Switzerland is land locked, none of CANZUK are, our situations are different.

Silly. The CANZUK countries all have rather different threats and security interests. Needless to say none of them are capable of projecting the necessary force around the globe. They cannot protect each other against threats like Russia or China (or the US for that matter).

That's down to budgets and a tendency to drop spending during long periods of relative peacetime. Excepting NZ, all of AUS, CAN, and especially the UK have engaged in large scale deployments many times in far flung corners of the world in the post WW2 era. Falklands for one, Iraq, Afghanistan, Mali for some others. Again you are thinking of your Switzerland, the neutral county with an army composed of a few bicycle riders.

[Beren]

The problem is that they're not the closest trading partners of each other anymore. Australia and New Zealand trade with China, whereas Canada trades with the US and the UK with the EU the most. So the ties between them are rather linguistic and cultural, which means they still could establish and regularly meet in online pubs perhaps.