[Ter]

I'm sure the biggest and most eurosceptic country leaving the EU is a huge blow to the EU and a big win for Eurosceptics in the long term too.

Sour grapes much ?
The UK was a huge net contributor to the EU budget.
Not getting that money must hurt.
And losing such a big country from your club must also be painful I suppose.

[Beren]

Sour grapes much ?
The UK was a huge net contributor to the EU budget.
Not getting that money must hurt.
And losing such a big country from your club must also be painful I suppose.

They should be put in a Norway-like orbit and the EU would be better off in general. Brexit was a Pyrrhic victory for Eurosceptics, maybe that's why Babis wants a second referendum and Orbán even campaigned against it (with posters) in the UK. Politically speaking it's an absolute win for Europeanists if the Brits get excluded from European politics.

[Hong Wu]

This is one Dumbo short of a circus or whatever we might say. NPCNN is staffed by (you guessed it) NPCs who don't have the ability to declare or seriously, credibly discuss a possible war. As part of the "information class" as I've tried to term them, they are the cutting edge of the 1 in 12 Americans who identify as progressives, people who think they lead us but are in actuality just a vocal minority. I mean really, have NATO invade a European country? What would that do to the situations in Italy and the UK? I mean, brace yourself here, trigger warning but when you have a group of people you need to come up with something that is tolerable to everyone in the group if you expect them to peacefully stay in the group. And attacking one of the group members usually doesn't sit well with everyone. Progs may have been too sheltered to understand this.

[B0ycey]

Where did I write they want to leave the EU?
The fact of the matter is that Hungary, Poland, Italy and a couple of other Euro-sceptic countries will resist Brussels in so many ways that the EU becomes practically ungovernable.
So perhaps think before you type.

So they are not Euro sceptic if they want to remain in the EU. Gotcha.

But the EU is a union of united voice. If there isn't a concensus then change doesn't occur. But there are things that seem to be uniting Europe into one entity even with the V4 veto. And perhaps economic turmoil will bring more unity. And that can only be good for the continent as a whole.

Oh I see. What percentage are economic migrants? They have all been tutored to say they are being tortured in their home countries so they became political asylum seekers.
And now that the civil war in Syria is coming to an end, will that million Syrians in Germany and Sweden go back home? What do you think ?

That is a decision for those democratic nations to make. But ultimately the word of an asylum seekers isn't taken as the defining factor as you claim. And that is my point. The EU is rejecting and sending people home. They have also agreed deals to slow down the crisis to manageable measures. Europe isn't turning into an Islamic state. It is just Zionist propaganda.

Why did you bring Jews in this discussion ?

Because Jews were once the persecuted race asking for refuge. And now you forget that when other race suffers from the same fate.

#shortmemory

[Ter]

So they are not Euro sceptic if they want to remain in the EU. Gotcha.

You gotcha nothing.
Hungary and others are Eurosceptic, they do not necessarily want to leave the EU but will oppose the Junckers and the Verhofstadts. They will use their veto to make the EU ungovernable.

The EU is rejecting and sending people home

Yes, sending them home by the tens but a million stay in.
Don't try your cheap arguments here buddy.

Because Jews were once the persecuted race asking for refuge. And now you forget that when other race suffers from the same fate.

You still didn't answer my question, why bring up the Jews to me ?
And since we are here, I cannot recall millions of Jews entering Europe illegally.
Can you ?

[Beren]

They will use their veto to make the EU ungovernable.

[B0ycey]

You gotcha nothing.
Hungary and others are Eurosceptic, they do not necessarily want to leave the EU but will oppose the Junckers and the Verhofstadts. They will use their veto to make the EU ungovernable.

So again, not Euro-sceptic. Gotcha.

Hungary is like every single other EU member. It uses its veto for its own agenda rather than the collective. But just to be clear, even with the V4 veto, Europe is already becoming more integrated since Brexit. It isn't breaking up. Perhaps the only internal EU affair happening today are Hungary and Poland breaking it's own agreement in freedoms it signed up for and the implications of that if left unchallenged. But as a consensus is required in the EU, there is no way Hungary is going to lose its veto. So much ado about nothing.

So much for the great dictatorship.

Yes, sending them home by the tens but a million stay in.
Don't try your cheap arguments here buddy.

Like water and fish reproduction.

The asylum process takes time. Get real. And more importantly agreements have been set up to be able to send them home. It isn't the lunch you think it is. The EU is taking this problem seriously.

You still didn't answer my question, why bring up the Jews to me ?
And since we are here, I cannot recall millions of Jews entering Europe illegally.
Can you ?

Isn't it obvious. When Jews were persecuted were they asking themselves to be sent back to Germany? And yet you ask that of other asylum seekers.

#shortmemory

[Ter]

So much for the great dictatorship.

Indeed, it is a failed dictatorship.
The proportion of Eurosceptic MEPs is getting bigger and bigger.

Like water and fish reproduction.

You must be laughing at yourself then, you fell for my trolling hook, line and sinker.

The EU is taking this problem seriously.

I hope you are right.
The blunder from Frau Merkel has diminished the EU to a great extent and mobilised a great deal of public opinion against it.
Let's see.

When Jews were persecuted were they asking themselves to be sent back to Germany? And yet you ask that of other asylum seekers.

Your comparison does not hold water (please do not misunderstand me when I mention water in this context)

[B0ycey]

You must be laughing at yourself then, you fell for my trolling hook, line and sinker.

We all know you were serious Ter. You can tell by the fact you tried to defend it numerous times until you had no where else to hide. Then you denied you were serious. Whatever.

[Ter]

We all know you were serious Ter. You can tell by the fact you tried to defend it numerous times until you had no where else to hide. Then you denied you were serious. Whatever.

You are still laughing at yourself.

For your information : I trolled exactly the same thing when joking a couple of months ago with Mistytiger and @Godstud is my witness, he told Misty that it was trolling.
But whatever rocks your boat.

[B0ycey]

You are still laughing at yourself.

For your information : I trolled exactly the same thing when joking a couple of months ago with Mistytiger and @Godstud is my witness, he told Misty that it was trolling.
But whatever rocks your boat.

Doth the lady protest too much methinks.

Ter, you were arguing with Godstud.

What use of a witness is he to you?

[Ter]

Doth the lady protest too much methinks.

Ter, you were arguing with Godstud.

What use of a witness is he to you?

You sound more like a teenager thn your own age.
I might paste the earlier trolling if I find the time to look for it but you are not really worth the trouble.
Go back to whining about a second Brexit referendum, that has been your mantra here.
I suggest you put it in your signature, then there is no need to type it up every time.

[B0ycey]

You sound more like a teenager thn your own age.
I might paste the earlier trolling if I find the time to look for it but you are not really worth the trouble.
Go back to whining about a second Brexit referendum, that has been your mantra here.
I suggest you put it in your signature, then there is no need to type it up every time.

And what exactly is my age? I could well be a teenager for all you know. Although I do like trolling an idiot who was caught being naive. But I don't like derailing serious threads. So yes Ter we both actually know the truth even if you don't want to admit it. And that is all I really care about. So continue to protest. I don't actually care either way.

[Ter]

I don't actually care either way.

Then why do you continue to reply, like a little whiner would do ?
Your excessive use of emoticons does not make your ridiculous posts more believable, on the contrary.
Whine a little more about Brexit, that suits you better.

[Rugoz]

But the EU is a union of united voice. If there isn't a consensus then change doesn't occur.

How's that a positive?

In the EU the treaties have the status of constitutional law and the sole authority to interpret the treaties is the European Court of Justice (which is known for its "judicial activism"). Unlike constitutions in other countries however EU treaties are far more extensive and cover all kinds of areas that are normally a part of secondary law and subject to democratic (i.e. majority) decisions. It creates a huge bias for the status quo and gives an unelected body (ECJ) enormous influence.

[B0ycey]

How is concensus not better than authoritarian?

And yet Switzerland has to pretty much concede on many of these things without any influence to change things. Which is a better?

[Rugoz]

How is consensus not better than authoritarian?

How is that even a response to what I said?

As long as everyone agrees with the treaties and their interpretation by the ECJ everything is fine and dandy, obviously. But political circumstances are always changing and so should laws. Changing the treaties requires approval of all national parliaments and in some cases the people (though in practice referendum results were more or less ignored). Democratic decision making means majority rule. I'm not saying the EU is ready for it given the importance and extent of EU law, but EU integration should never have been advanced to the point where democratic decision making is not acceptable because of the lack of a European demos.

It's difficult to find an English article on the topic, but here's one:
https://www.hertie-school.org/en/events ... ter-grimm/

And yet Switzerland has to pretty much concede on many of these things without any influence to change things. Which is a better?

It can decide on which things it wants to concede. But it's a moot point anyway. EU membership for Switzerland is basically off the table because the political system is not compatible with the way EU institutions function.

[Baff]

The right wing must be stopped world wide and the EU presents a medium to do this.

Except of course that EU isn't a united voice at all.
Much as they seek to silence any dissenters.

And this targeting of Hungry is exactly that, an attempt to shut down dissent.

The comedy of the EU calling of greater democracy is high and lost on no one.

Hungary is one of 28 members and it's tiny. You cannot join of club of comparatively liberal countries and then complain about its liberal policies.

I think we have different idea's of libealism.

Not many EU countries are liberal. Most are social democracies, not liberal.


In liberalism, I leave you alone and you leave me alone and hence we both get on.
Unless what I do harms you, you mind your own business and vice versa.
....
So if Hungary wants to appoint it's own judges, in line with it's own democratic principles....
It doesn't matter that every other democracy does this too and it doesn't matter that foreign lefties don't approve the appointment of a right wing judge.
Why?
Because liberalism.

Now if the EU objects to this and seeks to overthrow an internal Hungarian policy, that is not liberal.
That is illiberal.

It's illiberal verging on fascism, and Guy Maurice Marie Louise Verhofstadt (confused Guy with girls name Marie Louise) proposing military force to change the regime in Hungary is pretty reminiscent of fascism. Left wing authoritarian militancy.
He is a Fourth Riecher. Nothing liberal here.

[foxdemon]

The right wing must be stopped world wide and the EU presents a medium to do this.

Except of course that EU isn't a united voice at all.
Much as they seek to silence any dissenters.

And this targeting of Hungry is exactly that, an attempt to shut down dissent.

The comedy of the EU calling of greater democracy is high and lost on no one.



I think we have different idea's of libealism.

Not many EU countries are liberal. Most are social democracies, not liberal.


In liberalism, I leave you alone and you leave me alone and hence we both get on.
Unless what I do harms you, you mind your own business and vice versa.
....
So if Hungary wants to appoint it's own judges, in line with it's own democratic principles....
It doesn't matter that every other democracy does this too and it doesn't matter that foreign lefties don't approve the appointment of a right wing judge.
Why?
Because liberalism.

Now if the EU objects to this and seeks to overthrow an internal Hungarian policy, that is not liberal.
That is illiberal.

It's illiberal verging on fascism, and Guy Maurice Marie Louise Verhofstadt (confused Guy with girls name Marie Louise) proposing military force to change the regime in Hungary is pretty reminiscent of fascism. Left wing authoritarian militancy.
He is a Fourth Riecher. Nothing liberal here.

A most interesting post.

Liberalism and universalism aren’t really compatible. So we have been living a lie since 1941 when Churchill and Roosevelt signed the Atlantic charter.

Basically rights are a way of telling those who control the institutions precisely where they can shove it. The contemporary liberal world order seems to have forgotten this. There is nothing liberal about forcing others to comply with one’s will.


And this is the problem with the EU commission. They aren’t liberal, nor are they democratic. In fact they are unaccountable and thus represent absolutism rather than liberalism.

No wonder the English want out!

[hartmut]

So I take it your answer to the question would be a ‘no’.

Perhaps you should take the matter up with people like Guy Verhofstadt?

The question was "Should NATO Invade Hungary?".
Of course that seems to be plain nonsense because, as being member of NATO, Hungary already harbors NATO-forces and is up to now quite happy with that.

And what you should "take" are simple facts, and not speculations about alleged points of views of others.
Guy Verhofstadt does not represent NATO, .. also very easy to grabbed to knowledge.
What are you talking about?
Are you mixing different things together to get the scent you feel proper to your nose?