[Rich]

Oh God not Again!

I generally support free speech, but if any speech deserve Lance's "They should be fuckin' killed, man. No trial, no jury, straight to execution", punishment system, its claims of the new politics. At the very least those who the support the new politics should be be mocked, humiliated and abused. How many times do we have to endure "The New Politics"? We had it with the SDP split in 1981, we had it with Obama in 2008, we had it with Nick Clegg in 2010, Douglas Carswell in 2014. There's been the SNP Macron even the Brexiteers in the referendum offered a new type of expert free politics. I expect if you dig back you'll find the new politics in Republican Rome. Its time to recognises "the New Politics!", as the oldest lamest fraud there is in State society political cultures.

It is extraordinary the luck of the Tories.

Its not luck.

You make your own luck in this game, Saint.

Its due to the brilliant political leadership of David Cameron and Teresa May. The former not only succeeded in crushing UKIP but also in savaging the Liberal Democrats. What politically distinguishes the Independent group from the Liberal Democrats? Nothing. Hence Ian Austin has started the Independent, Independent Group. The Labour party has been based on the principle that it is a broad church, but one in which the left never wins. The right of the Labour Party have lost. but they believe they have the divine right to always win. But above all these the party leavers believe they are entitled to candidacy for life. How dare these Local Parties, whether Conservative or Labour, consider deselecting them?

[B0ycey]

The Independent Group is nothing more than 12 MPs who think that their former parties which they used to represent have been hijacked by extreme thinking. They have a point according to who you speak to. But until a party has been formed and a manifesto published, you cannot tell me (or I you) who they are and what they represent. The could be exactly what people are looking for or another form of the status quo.

Also, I thought you said you weren't a Tory? So stop sucking Camerons cock. Both He and May are not brilliant but incompetent. The very reason that UK politics is broken along with the fact a new political party is being formed should show you how useless they actually have been.

[Rich]

The Independent Group is nothing more than 12 MPs who think

I think its still 11, with 1 in the Independent, Independent Group.

that their former parties which they used to represent have been hijacked by extreme thinking. They have a point according to who you speak to. But until a party has been formed and a manifesto published, you cannot tell me (or I you) who they are and what they represent.

Your misunderstanding is shared by many intelligent commentators. When will people get it into their thick heads that Cameron and May have not been concerned about the short term interests of the country, but the long term interests of the Conservative Party. The other key thing to realise is that most of the leading Brexiteers are phonies, they don't believe in hard Brexit, some of them don't believe in Brexit at all. They're just smart enough to try and make sure they don't end up owning this disastrous (for the country) deal.

[Beren]

Its due to the brilliant political leadership of David Cameron and Teresa May.

The plane, either the UK or the Tory party, is crashing into the mountain, but the pilots must be brilliant. What you keep doing is like reciting how brilliant in this and that Hitler was while losing the war big time. Maybe you just mean to be a brand here, in which case you also do a brilliant job.

[B0ycey]

Your misunderstanding is shared by many intelligent commentators. When will people get it into their thick heads that Cameron and May have not been concerned about the short term interests of the country, but the long term interests of the Conservative Party.

What is the long term interests of the Tory Party? To become unelectable. To split? Be known as the party that caused Brexit? I see no long term interests here except incompetence. And at that May and Cameron have excelled at.

[Rich]

The plane, either the UK or the Tory party, is crashing into the mountain, but the pilots must be brilliant. What you keep doing is like reciting how brilliant in this and that Hitler was while losing the war big time. Maybe you just mean to be a brand here, in which case you also do a brilliant job.

I recognise Alexander as the Great, but I'm under no illusions that it was wonderful to live in, for the large majority of the inhabitants of Alexander's Empire. The Roman's were arguably the greatest winners in history, the 2nd Punic War ranking alongside Botham's 149 not out, for all time great come backs. I watched the latter but not the former live on TV. But everywhere the Romans conquered, brought widening inequality.

Coming 2nd in the Olympics is not the mark of the loser. Hitler might have lost but to have brought Germany back and so close to victory in the Game of Nations was an amazing achievement. If Hitler's goals had been GDP growth, anti racism and Gay liberation, then of course he would have been a total failure, but they weren't so its stupid judging him on achieving things he wasn't trying to achieve. Hitler realised that Germany had one last chance to fall stall United States domination. Many Nazis took the view, it might only have been twelve years, not the thousand that was promised but what a twelve years. There are still Nazis dying today, who regard those twelve years as more inspiring than anything that came since. There's a few that still feel the same about Tony Blair's years in office.

Its the same with Cameron and May, their number one priority has been to maintain / restore the Conservatives as Britain's natural Party of Government. When properly understood their actions are not stupid and cowardly, but bold and wickedly intelligent.

[Beren]

So you actually did it and just compared May and Cameron to Hitler to prove how brilliant they are. Congratulations!

Let's forget about the opening, which I hardly see make any sense, not that I'm convinced the rest does.

Anyway, @Rich, call them brilliant as you wish, I don't give a shit anymore.

[Cartertonian]

Britain's natural Party of Government.

There's no such thing as a natural Party of Government. That infers that the development of society from feudalism has been nothing but smoke and mirrors. That the rich and powerful are rich and powerful through some divine right and natural order.

Bollocks.

They are rich and powerful through deceit, exploitation and violence.

[Nonsense]

I recognise Alexander as the Great, but I'm under no illusions that it was wonderful to live in, for the large majority of the inhabitants of Alexander's Empire. The Roman's were arguably the greatest winners in history, the 2nd Punic War ranking alongside Botham's 149 not out, for all time great come backs. I watched the latter but not the former live on TV. But everywhere the Romans conquered, brought widening inequality.

Coming 2nd in the Olympics is not the mark of the loser. Hitler might have lost but to have brought Germany back and so close to victory in the Game of Nations was an amazing achievement. If Hitler's goals had been GDP growth, anti racism and Gay liberation, then of course he would have been a total failure, but they weren't so its stupid judging him on achieving things he wasn't trying to achieve. Hitler realised that Germany had one last chance to fall stall United States domination. Many Nazis took the view, it might only have been twelve years, not the thousand that was promised but what a twelve years. There are still Nazis dying today, who regard those twelve years as more inspiring than anything that came since. There's a few that still feel the same about Tony Blair's years in office.

Its the same with Cameron and May, their number one priority has been to maintain / restore the Conservatives as Britain's natural Party of Government. When properly understood their actions are not stupid and cowardly, but bold and wickedly intelligent.

Nonsense -

Hitler, had he an agenda that was different to that which drove him, could actually have transformed Germany economically & politically.
Alas, it was not to be, but, it should never be forgotten the conditions within Germany between the wars, of which also shaped Hitlers political goals.

The Bismarks, along with the rest of the German establishment were indifferent to the sufferings of the population, much the same as in Russia pre-1917.
Attempting to address the economic failings, by waging war & accumulating wealth through conquest on the scale of Hitlers plans was never going to succeed.

The lesson of history, is never to think that it cannot repeat itself, it can, in a different form, because waging war does not have to mean throwing stones at each other across a some boundary, it generally begins from internal events first.

Calling CAMERON & MAY 'intelligent' does not compute.

By calling them so, you appear to imply that the people who voted them in are 'stupid', which they could be, whether or not they voted for the pair above.

Considering their actions in office, as well as the state of the country, suggest that it is they who are the one's lacking 'intelligence'.

[Beren]

Hitler, had he an agenda that was different to that which drove him, could actually have transformed Germany economically & politically.

Hitler actually transformed Germany economically, politically, socially, and in all ways possible. He was a reactionary that recreated pre-Weimar Germany in a modern form and then replayed the war, which he lost and screwed up the whole thing abysmally. So it could be argued that he was phenomenal in many ways, but maybe he wasn't that much brilliant after all. The same is happening with the UK in the sense that many mean to transform it and recreate it as it was before the EU, they actually strive for a modernised Thatcher era. Some Brits want to restore their history and greatness, like the Thatcher era was so great, which is not exactly an exclusively British thing, but it's their turn it seems.

[Potemkin]

Hitler actually transformed Germany economically, politically, socially, and in all ways possible. He was a reactionary that recreated pre-Weimar Germany in a modern form and then replayed the war, which he lost and screwed up the whole thing abysmally. So it could be argued that he was phenomenal in many ways, but maybe he wasn't that much brilliant after all. The same is happening with the UK in the sense that many mean to transform it and recreate it as it was before the EU, they actually strive for a modernised Thatcher era. Some Brits want to restore their history and greatness, like the Thatcher era was so great, which is not exactly an exclusively British thing, but it's their turn it seems.

Actually, they wanted to return to a pre-Thatcher era, before Dear Old Blighty ever joined the EEC in the first place. They wanted (and still want) to return Britain to its condition before the Suez Crisis of the 1950s. Yes, they really are that barmy. Personally, I have my own reasons for wanting the UK to leave the EU, not least of which is the fact that it is a necessary prerequisite to achieving a socialist economy and society in the UK (or whatever rump state is left after Brexit has worked its magic, lol). I regard most Brexiteers as useful idiots in that sense. They're not going to get their pre-Suez Thatcherite utopia; instead they will get the breakup of the UK and Comrade Corbyn as Prime Minister of the rump British state (basically, England and Wales) for the next couple of decades. Lol.

[Beren]

Actually, they wanted to return to a pre-Thatcher era, before Dear Old Blighty ever joined the EEC in the first place. They wanted (and still want) to return Britain to its condition before the Suez Crisis of the 1950s. Yes, they really are that barmy.

Maybe they would go back even further in history, but I think the Thatcher era would be the first historic station where they would consider stopping.

Personally, I have my own reasons for wanting the UK to leave the EU, not least of which is the fact that it is a necessary prerequisite to achieving a socialist economy and society in the UK (or whatever rump state is left after Brexit has worked its magic, lol). I regard most Brexiteers as useful idiots in that sense. They're not going to get their pre-Suez Thatcherite utopia; instead they will get the breakup of the UK and Comrade Corbyn as Prime Minister of the rump British state (basically, England and Wales) for the next couple of decades. Lol.

It depends on the outcome of Brexit, any Tory Brexit will obviously set the stage for a Tory future. After that you get regime-changed too if you dare elect someone like Corbyn.

[Potemkin]

Maybe they would go back even further in history, but I think the Thatcher era would be the first historic station where they would consider stopping.

Agreed.

It depends on the outcome of Brexit, any Tory Brexit will obviously set the stage for a Tory future. After that you get regime-changed too if you dare elect someone like Corbyn.

Time will tell, Beren. Time will tell....

[Beren]

Time will tell, Beren. Time will tell....

I think Corbyn has a clue as to whether what relationship with the EU would be the best for him, as well as Britain perhaps.