Notre Dame, Symbol of Western Christendom, Burns in Paris - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14999678
Apparently rich French people have pledged almost a billion dollars to restore the church. I find this weird because in a few generations, Notre Dame could be converted into a Mosque and the religious relics there would all be destroyed as heretical. Why pledge a billion dollars now if its future won't be secured?
#14999680
Hong Wu wrote:Apparently rich French people have pledged almost a billion dollars to restore the church. I find this weird because in a few generations, Notre Dame could be converted into a Mosque and the religious relics there would all be destroyed as heretical. Why pledge a billion dollars now if its future won't be secured?


You need to work on your trolling. Too obvious..
#14999695
blackjack21 wrote:It's not, except to B0ycey, who seems to think Islam was somehow insulted and it is his duty to defend Islam as some sort of Jihadi or a part of the mujahideen.


I don't really give a shit about PoFo members racist views to be insulted Blackjack. I only pointed out that your OP happened to mention the building turning into a mosque and how quick you seem to link negative things to Islam with most of your posts. Also this is the first I have heard of such a theory and you are basing your opinion on a novel too.

So no Blackjack it was you who made this thread about Muslims in your OP.
#14999698
Red_Army wrote:It's cool how this thread is all about muslims :lol:

Which only proves the right hates the Muslims even more than Macron, whereas the alternative is a general antipathy towards the French, so French Muslims must be the worst. :lol:

Also, @blackjack21, we don't need Muslims to have antisemitism in Europe and never have, and Christians had been persecuted as well way before Islam appeared on this earth. I'm sure the Romans were worse than them.

And I'm not an Islamophile, I just don't believe you're on the right track here.
#14999715
-I generally don't sympathize with the fleeing Jews, since they tend to vote as a bloc and tend to favor the very policies creating this 'multicultural' milieu that leaves them feeling unsafe and unwelcome in France.


Interesting post. I know you are trolling a bit but as in all good trolls there is an element of truth in it.

It is true to the extent that we no longer use policy and planning to implement our cultural goals. We use shaming and name calling. Look at the US. Since no kind of reasonable immigration policy can be codified into law we have the right proposing limits and the left blocking that in the congress. We have, essentially, an immigration policy based upon what the executive can get away with in the courts and the counter simply name calling and PC ranting.

Why this thread became about Muslims evades me. It is about a fire and the aftermath. But it does serve to remind us just how close to the surface these issues are.

Notre Dame should be rebuilt. So should Christianity in Europe. Europe has lost its identity. It was inevitable with the EU which was as culturally destructive as the Taliban.
#14999720
blackjack21 wrote:Well, there is a significant difference between the Emmanuel Macrons of France and average Gilets Jaunes protesters. At least a dozen people have been blinded in one eye, others had hands or fingers blown off, and some have even died at the hands of the French police.


There's a significant difference between American elites and the average person as well, but the average American is still sitting on their ass doing nothing.
#14999724
Drlee wrote:Notre Dame should be rebuilt. So should Christianity in Europe. Europe has lost its identity. It was inevitable with the EU which was as culturally destructive as the Taliban.

Sure, Europe has become such an unholy place due to the EU and it had been so much better before. :roll:

Perhaps Europe should go back even earlier before Christianity, which is a Middle Eastern religion anyway, to regain its identity. Maybe we should go back to the Romans, as by Christianity we always mean the Romanised version, which is based on a fairy tale for human sheep. I'm happy for the US being so Christian that even Trump is considered a true Presbyterian, by the way, I wonder how the Masonic Fathers would relate to that. :lol:
#14999727
ness31 wrote:Why pledge a billion dollars now if its future won't be secured?

They are afraid of the Gilets Jaunes and want to appear pro-French even though they have done their level best to sell France out to the EU.

B0ycey wrote:I don't really give a shit about PoFo members racist views to be insulted Blackjack.

You don't seem to even know the meaning of the term "racism," as you must have picked it up from some idiot multiculturalist. You should be ashamed because your ignorance is being called out. How many times does it have to be pointed out to people like you that Islam is a religion, not a race? There are lots of Muslims of every race imaginable. Kosovo broke away from Serbia, because its population was Muslim and the Serbs are Christian--they are both European populations. Albanians are majority Muslim--they are European. Chechens fight the Russian Federation, because they are Muslims, whereas Russians are Orthodox Christians--they are both Caucasians. By the way, I have Russian friends too and I can even speak a little Russian. When the US had trouble pacifying the Philippines in the aftermath of the Spanish-American war, it was because they had some tough fights with Moros--Filipino Muslims who adhere to the Al-Shafi‘i school of Islamic law. When I speak of helping a black man triple his salary back in the late 1990s, that is my friend Ali from Cameroon, Africa--he's Muslim; oh, and he's black too. He is allergic to nuts, shellfish and some other things and prefers to eat Halal--it's a pain in the ass going to lunch with him to find something he's willing to eat. People think he's a health nut only to see him eating some sugar candies--he can't eat chocolate either (allergic).

B0ycey wrote:I only pointed out that your OP happened to mention the building turning into a mosque and how quick you seem to link negative things to Islam with most of your posts.

Enumerate one negative thing I have said about Islam! For your information, about this time one week and one day from now, I plan on visiting the Sheik Zayed Grand Mosque in Abu Dhabi. I could be like you and go visit Ferrari World instead, but I have my priorities straight. Explain how I am an Islamophobe if I am going to be spending a week in the United Arab Emirates, or if I have friends who are Muslim? People are not racists just because they disagree with multiculturalism (note, they didn't elect to call it multiracialism). I do not drink alcohol; I do not believe in gay marriage; I do believe in God; I don't think men and women are equal; my vocabulary is well-developed enough that I can express myself without swearing--which one of us do you think is likely to get along with Muslims better?

Beren wrote:Which only proves the right hates the Muslims even more than Macron, whereas the alternative is a general antipathy towards the French, so French Muslims must be the worst. :lol:

I don't think all people on the right hate Muslims. Quite the contrary. Many conservatives actually like Islam, as Islam is considerably more conservative than conservative Christians. The left tries using Christianity to turn it into compassion for things the bible prohibits--Sympathy for the Devil as the Rolling Stones characterize it.

Beren wrote:Also, @blackjack21, we don't need Muslims to have antisemitism in Europe and never have, and Christians had been persecuted as well way before Islam appeared on this earth.

I don't think anybody needs an education on that point. Socialists are notoriously anti-Jewish, and they are increasingly hostile to Christianity as well. This is among the many reasons why people like May, Macron and Merkel are all facing terminal political lives.

Drlee wrote:It is true to the extent that we no longer use policy and planning to implement our cultural goals. We use shaming and name calling. Look at the US. Since no kind of reasonable immigration policy can be codified into law we have the right proposing limits and the left blocking that in the congress. We have, essentially, an immigration policy based upon what the executive can get away with in the courts and the counter simply name calling and PC ranting.

Well that's true in Europe too, and it is why the EU is falling apart. The EU wants to hang on to Britain, because Britain pays tribute to the EU. As countries that pose liabilities like Italy actively seek to leave, the EU will have much bigger problems because they will have an incentive to allow those who impose financial burdens to exit. The EU is pretty much doomed, and I think people will recall Merkel's leadership as a key reason it failed.

Drlee wrote:Why this thread became about Muslims evades me. It is about a fire and the aftermath.

B0cey does not strike me as a defender of the Islamic faith, but rather an adherent to idiotic multicultural orthodoxy. He just thought that he could twist what I said into an anti-Islamic rant on my part, which it was not and I did not oblige him. I can just highlight the fact that he is one of those who characterizes those who oppose Islam as "racist" in spite of it being regularly pointed out that Islam is not a race, but a religion. I wonder if that degree of stupidity is actually common among policy makers too.

Drlee wrote:But it does serve to remind us just how close to the surface these issues are.

Notre Dame should be rebuilt. So should Christianity in Europe. Europe has lost its identity. It was inevitable with the EU which was as culturally destructive as the Taliban.

Congratulations on getting the point! We may not agree on many things, but at least you are literate.

A great deal of what was foundational to socialism came out of Christianity. The point of making the "social gospel" secular was to broaden its appeal to different Christian sects and Jews too, not to stamp out religion. Unfortunately, Marxist were too extreme.

Red_Army wrote:There's a significant difference between American elites and the average person as well, but the average American is still sitting on their ass doing nothing.

Americans elected Donald Trump, who pulled out of the TPP, pulled out of the Paris climate accord, and says "Merry Christmas". Trump routinely trolls the political left. The American right has driven the establishment nuts. They have gotten much further than Marine Le Pen has in France. They set up the Tea Party, primaried Republican leadership--and successfully in many cases. We have had two people quit the position of Speaker of the House--I omit Gingrich, because he was trying to set a Washington-like standard of 8 years. Pelosi fought for the position and is finding the job miserable and it hasn't even been six months for her. Americans are changing how they vote. When France does that, they will start seeing change. They just have to get used to voting for people that media calls "racist" and so forth. Europe has a more violent history in that regard, so people are a little more circumspect. However, eventually Europeans may simply adopt hard right politicians, because there is no other palatable alternative that isn't leftist or multicultural.
#14999731
Drlee wrote:Why this thread became about Muslims evades me. It is about a fire and the aftermath. But it does serve to remind us just how close to the surface these issues are.


Probably because of the irrational fear by some on the right that Muslims are going to replace white folk in Europe.

Notre Dame should be rebuilt. So should Christianity in Europe. Europe has lost its identity. It was inevitable with the EU which was as culturally destructive as the Taliban.


Notre Dame should be rebuilt because of its architectural significance.

This has nothing to do with religion or myths about European identity or the EU.
#14999738
Probably because of the irrational fear by some on the right that Muslims are going to replace white folk in Europe.


Right? So wrong.

First it is not an irrational fear. It is not about skin color. It is about profound ideological differences. It is about the subjugation (not subordination) of women and codification of all manner of practices that are against those that all Christian Europeans hold sacred. Or should.

As Blackjack pointed out, the right is not hammering on Islam. It is, in my opinion all too tolerant of its more repressive aspects.

I criticize the left for the same thing. In the misguided worship of multiculturalism it excuses practices that are anathema to modern left thought. The aforementioned denigration of women for example. YOU should be condemning the sexist homophobic and other unacceptable aspects of Islam rather than pointing at the right and shouting racist. Or Islamophobe.

The Christian far right could at least claim an excuse for supporting Islamic thought on Biblical grounds and some do. I do not but that is just my flavor of Christianity. One could also praise the right for its opposition to the spread of Islam into our respective countries (Or in the case of the EU that conglomeration that used to be countries). In doing so it is attempting to avoid the influence, again, of practices and beliefs that are contrary to our laws, customs and way of life. Wouldn't it be fun to take driving licenses away from California women? Or beat a girl in Ohio for going out without an escort? How about hanging a homosexual or two in Calgary? There is absolutely nothing outrageous about these things in Ryiadh. They are not only acceptable but worthy of spreading throughout the world.

Notre Dame should be rebuilt because of its architectural significance.


:lol:

Sure. :roll:

This has nothing to do with religion or myths about European identity or the EU.


Notre Dame has everything to do with religion and European identity. I know you find this inconvenient but it is first and foremost a church. The vast majority of people who visit it do so just for that reason. People do not visit curious architecture very often. Something else draws them to cathedrals throughout Europe and even in the US.

There is a marvelous modern Cathedral in San Francisco. It is loaded with tourists most of the time. They are not there to see the windows.

Sure, Europe has become such an unholy place due to the EU and it had been so much better before. :roll:


In some places it was better before. And yes, some of the constraints placed on local government has lead to a watering down of cultural identity which includes religion. Indeed which is built on it.

Perhaps Europe should go back even earlier before Christianity, which is a Middle Eastern religion anyway, to regain its identity.


Really? That is your argument? Not worth responding to that idiocy.

Maybe we should go back to the Romans, as by Christianity we always mean the Romanised version, which is based on a fairy tale for human sheep.


:roll: Yea. Here we go again. Another atheist rant. Very childish. But fortunately irrelevant. (The burning of Notre Dame shows just how irrelevant.

I'm happy for the US being so Christian that even Trump is considered a true Presbyterian, by the way, I wonder how the Masonic Fathers would relate to that. :lol:


In the US Trump is not considered a religious anything. To his followers and especially their leaders, he is a useful tool. It is a trade. He pretends to care about religion and they get their pro-religion SCOTUS picks. As for Masons, I can't possibly see what that has to do with anything here except to remember that all Freemasons are theists.
#14999740
@blackjack21, it's really great that you feel the need to explain your holiday visits and how much your vocabulary is within the pale. As for your unfound love for Muslims, perhaps you might want to edit your many posts as it gives off the wrong impression of where your love is. :lol:

Nonetheless maybe you might want to address why you needed to mention people wanting to convert Notre Dame into a mosque in a thread about a fire - especially as you didn't want to turn this thread into a far-right wing love nest. :roll:
#14999750
Red_Army wrote:@blackjack21 your equivocation of risking your life and fighting in the streets ...

Where am I risking my life and fighting in the street? You people have rather vivid imaginations, as I don't think I've ever even suggested I was doing any such thing anywhere. I'm not getting flash grenades thrown at me by Macron's forces after all, as I am not in France.

Red_Army wrote:to voting for a fat plutocrat who Palestinians (PoFo changes p*a*l*s to palestinians :lol: ) around with pedophiles

Trump opposed unrestricted free trade and multiculturalism, and was the only viable presidential candidate to do so since Reagan and the Plaza Accord.

Red_Army wrote:really reinforces my point about how Americans are lazy and stupid.

You realize that you are an American, right? Low self-esteem?

Drlee wrote:As Blackjack pointed out, the right is not hammering on Islam. It is, in my opinion all too tolerant of its more repressive aspects.

I criticize the left for the same thing. In the misguided worship of multiculturalism it excuses practices that are anathema to modern left thought. The aforementioned denigration of women for example.

That is why Teresa May's government is prosecuting Tommy Robinson, for example. He points out that the government of the UK covered up "grooming." May is a woman and not exactly hostile to non-establishment women being "groomed." I suppose if it targeted women who went to boarding schools or were educated at Cambridge or Oxford, she might take exception. Deplorables be damned along with Tommy Robinson seems to be Teresa May's sentiment.

Drlee wrote:Notre Dame has everything to do with religion and European identity. I know you find this inconvenient but it is first and foremost a church. The vast majority of people who visit it do so just for that reason.

I find it amazing that they try and insist on treating Notre Dame as a museum, but then find the idea of building a mosque in its place somehow insulting to Islam when they purport to be atheists. Multiculturalism seems to have no requirement of logical consistency. My trolling if you want to call it that was precisely directed at comments like this:

Red_Army wrote:The real Notre Dame is in South Bend Indiana, so everything is cool.

Beren wrote:Notre-Dame matters the most as a tourist attraction actually, like the Eiffel Tower or the Great Pyramid of Giza does. I wonder if who care more about this, potential tourists who'd like to see the Notre-Dame once at least in a lifetime or the French themselves.

And of course B0ycey, who is still struggling to identify a source of his sense of outrage.
B0ycey wrote:It maybe a religious building but it's attraction is historic.

Surprisingly, Pants-of-dog has acquitted himself/herself? as above a complete idiot, which is quite refreshing. Architecturally, I think the Cathedral at Chartres is pretty important too as it was one of the early uses of flying buttresses to build gothic extensions onto an originally Romanesque building. Flying Buttresses themselves are pretty ancient, though.

Drlee wrote:Really? That is your argument? Not worth responding to that idiocy.

It does highlight the hostility of the left to Christianity though, does it not?

Drlee wrote:In the US Trump is not considered a religious anything. To his followers and especially their leaders, he is a useful tool. It is a trade. He pretends to care about religion and they get their pro-religion SCOTUS picks. As for Masons, I can't possibly see what that has to do with anything here except to remember that all Freemasons are theists.

Look at you go!

B0ycey wrote:As for your unfound love for Muslims, perhaps you might want to edit your many posts as it gives off the wrong impression of where your love is. :lol:

I've asked you to name just one example where I have been critical of Islam. Is that so difficult for you? What is it about non-adherence to left wing ideology that makes you think everybody who isn't a leftist somehow hates blacks or Muslims? What is it about non-adherence to egalitarianism that makes you think that everybody who isn't an egalitarian is a white supremacist? You do realize that there are more than two political views in the world, right? It's not just your view and the other one.

B0ycey wrote:Nonetheless mayve you might want to address why you needed to mention people wanting to convert Notre Dame into mosque in a thread about a fire - especially as you didn't want to turn this thread into a right wing love nest. :roll:

It is a project of the European left to stamp out Christianity. As Paul Joseph Watson pointed out in the video I posted, Christian churches are vandalized at 10 times the rate of Mosques or Synagogues and they are flat out omitted from media reports. There has been a full scale genocide of Christians in Iraq, Syria and Egypt over the last decade and the media says almost nothing. If you want to know about it, you'd have to tune in to the Christian broadcasting network--yet, another reason why people increasingly do not see outlets like CNN as a reliable source of information. Why do you think Muslims would be offended by the idea of replacing Notre Dame with a Mosque, for example? The Al-Aqsa Mosque is considered one of the holiest places in Islam, not much behind Mecca and Medina and it is built on top of the Jewish Temple Mount. Religions often build their own holy sites on the ruins of another religion's holy site. Do you really not understand that? Clearly you are not a Muslim, so exactly what do you think you are defending?

My post was pretty succinct, and mentioned a number of competing visions:

me wrote:It appears that Notre Dame as we've known it will be no more. The entire wooden frame parts of the structure are burning.

The loss of irreplaceable art and culture is incalculable.

There is no reporting yet whether this is due to the construction work, or whether it is related to the attacks on other churches in the area.

It remains to be seen what will happen in the aftermath. I expect donations from all around the world to rebuild it.

Politically and culturally I think it will be a seminal moment, particularly for those who want to preserve a Christian heritage in Europe, those who want to wipe out Christianity, and those who would rather raze the stone edifice of Notre Dame and replace it with a mosque.

Which part of this do you think would offend Muslims? Can you point that out to me? Not all Muslims are the same. For example: Rhone Mosque Council President Urges Muslims to Help Rebuild Notre-Dame. As I said, I expect donations from all around the world to rebuild Notre Dame.
#14999752
Drlee wrote:
First it is not an irrational fear. It is not about skin color. It is about profound ideological differences. It is about the subjugation (not subordination) of women and codification of all manner of practices that are against those that all Christian Europeans hold sacred. Or should.

Not just Christians, pagans too. If anything my fear is the more justified because if they take over they would probably let you as a Christian live as a humiliated dhimmi, but they'll just flat out kill me.
#14999753
@blackjack21, just because Notre-Dame is an active church, it doesn't mean it matters more as such than it matters as a tourist attraction. I wouldn't consider France such a religious country as you seem to and even Macron tries to exploit it as a symbol of French national identity, so he doesn't even treat it as a religious institution.
#14999755
Beren wrote:.. even Macron tries to exploit it as a symbol of French national identity, so he doesn't even treat it as a religious institution.


That is interesting that a Christian cathedral might also be a symbol of the French national identity. It would be a stretch for the buildings of another faith to be seen that way.
#14999757
blackjack21 wrote:And of course B0ycey, who is still struggling to identify a source of his sense of outrage.


I have already told you that I do not care for your views to be upset.

Surprisingly, Pants-of-dog has acquitted himself/herself? as above a complete idiot, which is quite refreshing. Architecturally, I think the Cathedral at Chartres is pretty important too as it was one of the early uses of flying buttresses to build gothic extensions onto an originally Romanesque building. Flying Buttresses themselves are pretty ancient, though.


It isn't really idiotic to highlight that Notre Dame is a tourist attraction for historic reasons - some of which you have pointed out - but instead idiotic to think it's attraction is solely down to religion.

Nonetheless I have told you it is a religious building but it should be obvious to most people that the building heritage rather than religious sentiment is why people visit the building at high numbers. After all, Christians do not need to go to Paris to praise God.

I've asked you to name just one example where I have been critical of Islam. Is that so difficult for you? What is it about non-adherence to left wing ideology that makes you think everybody who isn't a leftist somehow hates blacks or Muslims? What is it about non-adherence to egalitarianism that makes you think that everybody who isn't an egalitarian is a white supremacist? You do realize that there are more than two political views in the world, right? It's not just your view and the other one.


I am not going through your posts to show you where you have been critical of Islam. But I will point one out to you next time if I must.

It is a project of the European left to stamp out Christianity. As Paul Joseph Watson pointed out in the video I posted, Christian churches are vandalized at 10 times the rate of Mosques or Synagogues and they are flat out omitted from media reports. There has been a full scale genocide of Christians in Iraq, Syria and Egypt over the last decade and the media says almost nothing. If you want to know about it, you'd have to tune in to the Christian broadcasting network--yet, another reason why people increasingly do not see outlets like CNN as a reliable source of information. Why do you think Muslims would be offended by the idea of replacing Notre Dame with a Mosque, for example? The Al-Aqsa Mosque is considered one of the holiest places in Islam, not much behind Mecca and Medina and it is built on top of the Jewish Temple Mount. Religions often build their own holy sites on the ruins of another religion's holy site. Do you really not understand that? Clearly you are not a Muslim, so exactly what do you think you are defending?.


You still haven't really explained why you mentioned the comment I highlighed in the first place if you didn't want a reaction such as mine. That was my point and something I have addressed back to you a few times now. Writing a load of bollocks whilst trying to strawman me is pointless. I do not care for your ramblings or other subjects that should be a topic on their own but why you felt you needed to mention that there are people (who?) wanted Notre Dame to burn so they can turn it into a mosque - especially as you didn't want this thread to have anything to do with Islam. The cynic in me thinks you were hoping for deliberate arson rather than carelessness to spring your opinions to light that this was religious motivated attack on the West and Christianity.
#14999759
SolarCross wrote:That is interesting that a Christian cathedral might also be a symbol of the French national identity.


Why is that strange? Catholicism has formed the French national identity just as much as the French Revolution. Ever since the Crusades, in which French noblemen took a prominent role, France has always been known as "the first daughter of the Catholic church".

While it's not a big deal to rebuild the cathedral today, in the past a substantial amount of a country's resources had to be mobilized to build these huge edifices. Craftsmen and artists from all over Europe would congregate to erect these visible symbols of a city's or a country's splendor and might.

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