Beren wrote:@blackjack21, just because Notre-Dame is an active church, it doesn't mean it matters more as such than it matters as a tourist attraction. I wouldn't consider France such a religious country as you seem to and even Macron tries to exploit it as a symbol of French national identity, so he doesn't even treat it as a religious institution.
Macron is a puppet of the Rothschilds. He doesn't care about religion at all. By contrast, there is more than a cottage industry of religious and pseudo-religious tourists following the works of Dan Brown alone. Here's an app you can download for that alone:
The Da Vinci Code Walking Tour, Paris.
B0ycey wrote:I have already told you that I do not care for your views to be upset.
Yet you have accused me of insulting Islam and lumping all Muslims into one basket, and you have yet to substantiate your accusation.
B0ycey wrote:It isn't really idiotic to highlight that Notre Dame is a tourist attraction for historic reasons - some of which you have pointed out - but instead idiotic to think it's attraction is solely down to religion.
There are lots of examples of fine stone masonry in Paris. The reason that Notre Dame is famous is because people in the Middle Ages sacrificed so much to build the cathedral as a place of worship.
B0ycey wrote:Nonetheless I have told you it is a religious building but it should be obvious to most people that the building heritage rather than religious sentiment is why people visit the building at high numbers.
I was raised Catholic. I visited Notre Dame when I was 18 years old after my senior year at
De La Salle High School in Concord, CA. Our motto was
Le Hommes de Foi. The movie,
When the Game Stands Tall was based on our football team. It is a Christian Brothers school. The Christian Brothers were known for education and for making sacramental wines among other things. Perhaps you have heard of
Christian Brothers Brandy. I actually went to boarding school at
Mont La Salle where Brother Timothy was the cellar master for a time along with a buddy who just retired from the FBI last year. Incidentally, St. Jean-Baptiste de La Salle's mother was Nicolle Moët de Brouillet, a relative of Claude Moët who was a founder of Moët & Chandon. They make a pretty fine champagne. Anyway, the next church I went to see was in Chartres. Then, we went to Mont St. Michel. I saw Sagrada Familia not a week later. This would be in 1986. I remember, because I cut my trip short due to all the terrorist activity in Paris from Abu Nidal and Hezbollah. Attributing all Notre Dame's visitors to a compelling interest in "building heritage" is comically incorrect, but I suppose you are entitled to your delusions. You had to change currencies all the time and use passports between countries back then, and the Berlin Wall was still up. Different times.
B0ycey wrote:After all, Christians do not need to go to Paris to praise God.
You are wise beyond your years... However, there is such a thing as pilgrimage. You might have heard John Wayne refer to people as "pilgrim" in his movies.
B0ycey wrote:I am not going through your posts to show you where you have been critical of Islam. But I will point one out to you next time if I must.
Then why are you accusing me of lumping all Muslims into one group? Why not withdraw your accusation until you can support it?
B0ycey wrote:You still haven't really explained why you mentioned the comment I highlighed in the first place if you didn't want a reaction such as mine.
I mentioned it, because there are those who want to stamp out Christianity in Europe, some who want to see Christian sites replaced with Islamic sites, and literature written to that effect. Clearly, my remark struck some sort of chord in you, but you don't seem to be able to articulate why it has you all atwitter and why you are focused on the Islamic aspect of my remarks.
B0ycey wrote:I do not care for your ramblings or other subjects that should be a topic on their own but why you felt you needed to mention that there are people (who?) wanted Notre Dame to burn so they can turn it into a mosque - especially as you didn't want this thread to have anything to do with Islam.
875 Catholic churches were attacked in France last year. I wouldn't expect you to know that, because there is a general black out on the topic in the establishment media. Some of those attacks are attributed to Muslim extremists and some to radical secularists. I mentioned both in my post. I didn't single out Islamic extremists or even conclude that they had something to do with Notre Dame burning.
875 Catholic Churches in France Were Vandalized in 2018 by Radical Secularists and MuslimsWhy are you so exorcised about Muslims, but not secular extremists?
B0ycey wrote:The cynic in me thinks you were hoping for deliberate arson rather than carelessness to spring your opinions to light that this was religious motivated attack on the West and Christianity.
Maybe you should consult an exorcist to expel the cynic in you, because I clearly said that there was no conclusion yet whether the fire was accidental or deliberate and related in some way to the vast crime wave of vandalism against Catholic churches in France.
Atlantis wrote:Why is that strange? Catholicism has formed the French national identity just as much as the French Revolution. Ever since the Crusades, in which French noblemen took a prominent role, France has always been known as "the first daughter of the Catholic church".
Joan of Arc anyone?
Beren wrote:Being French doesn't mean being Christian and they're actually strictly separated.
The government is secular. The people are not strictly secular.
SolarCross wrote:63-68% of the French identify as Christian, 23-28% having no religion and 7-9% are muslim. Like it or not France is still a predominately Christian country.
I think they don't like it...
Beren wrote:However, the main argument here is that Notre-Dame is not a religious symbol in France in the first place, it's a national symbol and tourist attraction.
For you, I'm guessing
The Hunchback of Notre Dame comes to mind...
Were you hoping Quasimodo got out okay?
SolarCross wrote:I think at the very least a Christian Cathedral built by and for Christians actually is a religious symbol in the first place and it becomes a national symbol and a tourist attraction as a consequence of that.
Until Napolean's era, there was no separation of church and state. There isn't such a separation in the UK.
SolarCross wrote:Beren as usual has realised that the horse really does go behind the cart.
Funny.
There are people who look at this stuff as having great significance:
Notre Dame: The Da Vinci FireAtlantis wrote:Religion served to legitimize worldly rulers.
Like courts do today, and why they still wear black robes, while senators do not.
SolarCross wrote:Secular rulers built palaces and castles, cathedrals were built by the church. Notre Dame was commissioned by Bishop Maurice de Sully. What is your agenda that you need to revise history away from itself in order rob Christianity of its monuments? I am not even a Christian myself but all these vultures hovering over the corpse of notre dame are even making me sick.
This is why I indicated that the fire was relevant, as Notre Dame is a symbol of Western Christendom.
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