Tainari88 wrote:Kaiser do I have to go and do a graph of the history of the welfare state in the UK from its inception to now and have to pull out speeches on the Parliament floor of why it was adopted and who were the ones fighting to not fund the welfare state? Do you have an idea of why it is necessary? What happens to workers who are laid off their jobs sometimes jobs they have worked for decades because the capitalist industry changes and they either have to fold or move out of the country to make higher profit margins Kaiser? If there is no welfare at all? How do these workers fare in the UK? Do they stay at home watching their bank accounts hit zero and getting turned out in the street for lack of funds to pay the rent? What kind of anger does this kind of lay off produce? Didn't you have some 'troubles' in the 1980's with the coal miners in Northern English cities because of lay offs or lack of work? As a government if you are feeling a bunch of angry workers hitting your streets and creating chaos and mayhem what solution is there to that but some kind of economic band aid to keep people from exploding politically and financially against the upper classes? Do you think Tories think giving away money from taxes is done because they care about the working class? Tories according to Corbyn have been taking payoffs to cut or slash public services? Why? If they are all loving the working classes? Explain. Discuss Kaiser. Go ahead?
Seems to me that Charles Dickens wrote some fictional novels that I loved called Oliver Twist, Little Dorrit and many others that were about child labor, poverty, work houses, debtors prisons in England of the 19th century. It wasn't a pretty picture. How did these nasty by products of the Industrial Revolution of Capitalism in England suddenly get transformed into the modern welfare state we witness today? Because the Toffs and the upper classes grew a heart and decided the suffering had to be dealt with? Or was it some kind of political pressure that was unbearable and the upper crust House of Lords had to concede some public funds to avoid being routed or beaten politically? Go ahead give me your non-economic explanation Kaiser I am all ears.
If you go back 100 years to make your point, you might as well call the US Democrats the party of the KKK today. That makes no sense to a reasonable person. The numbers I quoted in my last post are what the Tories spend today on welfare, health, etc. and this is what you should address when you say you prefer anarchy over the Tories.
Tainari88 wrote:The Tories were benefiting from the EU as your earlier graph stated (the upper income people were pro EU remainers, the supposedly lower income bracket were not generally wanting to stay in the EU and were Brexiters). So it is up to you to prove why the lower bracket people are not happy with that and apparently they outnumber in democratic votes the remainers. More lower bracket income British citizens than Toffs and middle class ones. So? Why aren't they happy? You tell me? I gave you my take on why they are not happy. They don't see real economic benefits and more economic ills in remaining. A conflict of class interests. Classic Marxist theory explains it. Not Tory double speak. Next.
I already told you what the main issue was: the question who makes the laws and the rules for the British people, Brussels or Westminster. Brexiteers are of the view that it should be Westminster now and, crucially, in the future too. This is quite easy to see for non-Marxists, as they don't need to seek a nail for their one dimensional hammer.
Tainari88 wrote:You need to open a book on socialism. I already told you what kind of socialist I am Kaiser. International Socialist. E. Fromm school of Humanist Communitarian Socialism. I also back Richard Wolff's form of Economic development. That is WHO I AM. Not an anarchist.
I've acknowledged this already more than once, so there's no need to repeat it as if I hadn't. I'm talking about your preference of anarchy over the Tories being in power.
Tainari88 wrote:But you need an education on anarchism. One of the best is talking to that 16 year old new member who lives in Damascus, Syria who knows his Anarchism front and back, right and left. Or go to the anarchism threads and figure it out. There are actual societies that thrived under Anarchism. Most of the most successful ones were Spanish Anarchists who had schools, communities and a lot more that did collect forms of communal money and ran a structure that functioned stateless. But I am not surprised you never heard of them because instead of being thorough and being able to attack with knowledge your ideological or political enemies with some real knowledge on every damn political philosophy out there you run around assuming and not reading hard facts and definitions on every type of political thought. A sign of a non-intellectual thinker Kaiser. Do your homework. You are a moderator in an international politics forum not in a Tory only website where everyone agrees. If I were debating anarchists? I would be studying a lot of anarchist theory. How else would I defend my international socialism which does still use a state structure Kaiser. It is not a Tory conservative rotten value one for sure. Lol. Ave Maria mujer.....a trabajar. Work!
See above answer. The anarchist literature is in these fora. Go and read them and analyze and distill anarchist theory. Go and ask anarchist members on here who are good at defending it. There are societies that function without a state structure. Do your political homework. My homework and promotion of political philosophies is international socialism not anarchism. The reason why the Tories are brought kicking and screaming into spending billions is called, political pressure from the working classes and keeping capitalists from spending on working families from their pockets. Farm it out to the state so they can keep more of their monies. The excuse they give is that the state is doing a bang up job and they can keep wages low and profits high for investors in their industries. Until another crisis happens. Politics Kaiser is about what politicians are pressured into conceding not in what they think is the 'moral' thing. Didn't you notice that before unemployment insurance, welfare cash payments, free health care, and food allotments for widows, and for seniors and dependent children, etc. what would happen to those people and what kind of political problems arose if you ignored them for a long time? Have you studied the history of the welfare state in your nation? NZ or in the UK? Figure it out.
I consider deflections such as "do your homework" and other variations of "read up on it" suggestive of an inability or unwillingness to defend a position. The number of words you've written in these two paragraphs, none of which answer my questions, could have gone towards doing just that rather than this more typical stream of consciousness. Since I'm a fairly patient person, I invite you to try again.
Tainari88 wrote:Didn't the EU explain to Westminster what joining up would entail according to the EU member rules? If the UK agreed? Then they need to hold up their part of their agreements. If they want to dissolve the relationship? Accept the economic hit. That is the way the cookie crumbles Kaiser. For international pacts and agreements.
I agree completely. The fear of economic repercussions was the most important reason for people to vote for remain. That is, being pro-EU had very little to do with the high minded and moralistic reasons we now hear so often from the Remain camp. On the other hand, economic reasons were far less important for the people who voted leave because they are concerned with the more fundamental question of who should rule the people.
Tainari88 wrote:Tories are treating them like children. Their job in a democracy is to reflect their will. If that means blowing up their preferences for remaining because their socioeconomic class is not happy with the will of the Brexiters? So be it. Suck it up. Lol. But they are bucking under the pressure because they are found out for the two faced liars that they are. They want to go against the will of the lower bracket income people because it goes against their own interests. Now they are exposed and it is a mess.
Well, that was exactly my point when I said that I had to reconsider some Tory MPs. But it doesn't change the fact that all parties left of the Tories are far worse on their job to, as you put it, "reflect their will". Note that that includes the Labour Party under Corbyn who is (or perhaps it would be better to say was) supposed to represent the social class that was more likely to vote leave. Again, the Tories have more in common with the working class on this issue.
Tainari88 wrote:People don't define themselves by their incomes? How many people of all income brackets in the UK have to sit down and assess every day practically if they are earning enough money to pay their homes, their bills, their debts and their children's needs and educations? How much are income considerations affecting this UK PM choice and the problems associated with frustrations with the system both political and economic in the UK? If everything is ok on the homefront there in the UK then why all this anxiety?
That is your society Kaiser....I don't patronize working class or underclass people. I am come from extremely poor people from the lowest class in my own societies. It just so happens they (my people or family) got an education despite all the issues with others trying to deny them everything. A few people survive all the bullshit Kaiser and become leaders despite being thrown with every damn obstacle known to humankind.
People are not passive victims Kaiser. All of them watch all these two faced liars and know exactly how rotten it all is. Many think the others are non thinkers. Nothing could be further from the truth. People watch their socioeconomic status like hawks...watching for many things. That is what political conflicts often are Kaiser, differing power groups fighting and pressuring for their interests.
Middle class people are orders of magnitude more obsessed with their status, socioeconomic or otherwise. You of all people should be aware of this. But then, you have actually invoked Dickens to back up your simplistic caricature of the working class, so I can't say I'm very surprised.