[Heisenberg]

So we forced Putin to attack Georgia and Ukraine.

Good to know.

Who are we going to force Putin to attack next?

So you lack reading comprehension or a grasp of historical context. Good to know.

[late]

So you lack reading comprehension or a grasp of historical context. Good to know.

I visited Hungary in 1973, and got an earful of how much they loved Russian troops in their cities, and Russian tanks parked just outside their cities.

Most of those countries, after the economic collapse of the Soviet Union, were begging to join the EU.

We should have let them join.

[Heisenberg]

I visited Hungary in 1973, and got an earful of how much they loved Russian troops in their cities, and Russian tanks parked just outside their cities.

That's lovely. It's a shame it has absolutely nothing to do with my point.

Imagine, for example, that after the 2008 financial crisis, Mexico and Canada announced formal alliances with China, and started stationing Chinese soldiers and nuclear weapons in Vancouver and Monterrey. Do you think this would engender no reaction at all on the part of the US? This is what I'm referring to when I talk about Russia reacting to NATO expansion.

This idea that a country that has voluntarily given up control of hundreds of thousands of square miles of territory since 1991 is somehow an "aggressor" is an absurd piece of NATO propaganda. Especially since NATO has expanded into all of those countries in the meantime, is currently doing its utmost to add Ukraine to the list as well, and has engaged in considerably more foreign armed conflicts since 1991 than Russia.

[late]

That's lovely. It's a shame it has absolutely nothing to do with my point.

Imagine, for example, that after the 2008 financial crisis, Mexico and Canada announced formal alliances with China, and started stationing Chinese soldiers and nuclear weapons in Vancouver and Monterrey. Do you think this would engender no reaction at all on the part of the US? This is what I'm referring to when I talk about Russia reacting to NATO expansion.

This idea that a country that has voluntarily given up control of hundreds of thousands of square miles of territory since 1991 is somehow an "aggressor" is an absurd piece of NATO propaganda. Especially since NATO has expanded into all of those countries in the meantime, is currently doing its utmost to add Ukraine to the list as well, and has engaged in considerably more foreign armed conflicts since 1991 than Russia.

Both Russia and America have done things they shouldn't do.

The fix is to stop doing military adventures, not make excuses so Russia can do more of them.

[Heisenberg]

Both Russia and America have done things they shouldn't do.

Helpful. I notice that, once again, you haven't addressed my point.

The fix is to stop doing military adventures, not make excuses so Russia can do more of them.

NATO expansion is the number one excuse for Russia's recent military adventures, in both Georgia and Ukraine.

[late]

NATO expansion is the number one excuse for Russia's recent military adventures, in both Georgia and Ukraine.

You are saying Putin has a divine right of conquest?

If Putin didn't have revanchist conquests in mind, joining NATO wouldn't matter.

There is no excuse.

[Heisenberg]

You are saying Putin has a divine right of conquest?

Can you read?

[Crantag]

Late is a good poster but Heisenberg is owning him on this exchange.

It's a tough sale in the west, but Russia was right to annex the Crimea, also. Russia actually had no choice but to do so.

[Hellas me ponas]

@late

Well if you see it from the Russian point of view. The west has left them with very limited choices and cornered them after the collapse of ussr. Thus you must understand that putin isn't an idiot neither a war maniac,
Putin is selecting his wars and his moves very carefully, because the main goal for Russia is to re establish their authority and control over their OWN areas and zones. Caucasus was traditionally Russian playground since 1600s, Ukraine and Belarus the same. Thus you must understand that when NATO trying to get those countries into the alliance it is like threatening Russia.
The fact that the baltics are in NATO is already a huge threatening step against Russia.

[late]

Can you read?

Can you respond on point?

A free and independent country has a right to protect itself, and that includes making alliances.

All you are saying is that they should have acted like puppets until Putin could re-attach the strings to put them under his boot.

Russia had a chance to join the developed world. Instead, they threw it away to pursue deluded dreams of restoring their empire.

[Hellas me ponas]

Dude just read the right previews text.

[Atlantis]

A free and independent country has a right to protect itself, and that includes making alliances.

All you are saying is that they should have acted like puppets until Putin could re-attach the strings to put them under his boot.

Russia had a chance to join the developed world. Instead, they threw it away to pursue deluded dreams of restoring their empire.

Your naiveté is very American. I guess you actually believe in what you are saying and can't see the obvious absurdity of it. That’s everything that’s wrong with US policy in this world.

Ukraine is an artificial construct. The Eastern part has always been Russian. If Ukraine wants to survive as an independent state, it needs to adopt a federal structure that suits all ethnic groups, including the ethnic Russians in the East. The alternative is to split up Ukraine into East and West. It's their choice.

The problem is the US not Russia. Russia accepted Ukraine sovereignty until the US started to turn Ukraine into a US proxy. The US knew full well that Russia had to react. That is geopolitics - simple! The US deliberately engineered the Maidan coup to divide Russia and Europe because the Paris-Berlin-Moscow entente during the US invasion of Iraq had shocked the neocons. The US will do everything to prevent a united Europe that includes Russia. The US tried to lure Ukraine into Nato since 2008. It's only because of the veto by Germany, France and Italy that Ukraine was not admitted into Nato. European powers don't want a war with Russia. But that didn't stop the US spending billions for undermining the independence of Ukraine.

[Heisenberg]

Can you respond on point?

I don't know. Can you stop making babyish strawman arguments and trying to tell me what I'm saying?

Russia had a chance to join the developed world. Instead, they threw it away to pursue deluded dreams of restoring their empire.

Do you know anything at all about Russian history post-1991? If you did, you wouldn't dream of saying such a profoundly stupid thing.

[late]

The problem is the US not Russia. Russia accepted Ukraine sovereignty until the US started to turn Ukraine into a US proxy.

Why, oh why, did we force Putin to invade?

Ukraine fought Russia around the time of WW1 (and then Holodomar...) and then again in the WW2 era.

And then Ukraine gave the Russian puppet the boot, and he ran away to Moscow, in 2014. They wanted to join the EU...

Revanchist delusions end badly.