How Screwed is the UK Labour Party Now? - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15083043
@SolarCross

Late Capitalism is a fact.

Marx's analysis is correct - It will collapse, that is a certainty.

What is not certain is that a Socialist state will rise out of the ashes.

If you look to History you will see it is not the study of progress.

Just because change changes things doesn't mean it changes things for the better; it can always get worse.


:)
#15083049
ingliz wrote:Late Capitalism is a fact.

Marx's analysis is correct - It will collapse, that is a certainty.

What is not certain is that a Socialist state will rise out of the ashes.

If you look to History you will see it is not the study of progress.

Just because change changes things doesn't mean it changes things for the better; it can always get worse.

:)

A socialist state would be worse. We have been there already we know what that is like. Late Capitalism can not be a fact. It is only "late" after it is dead. You can not read the future so you can not know that this is not just the beginning. Where we are right now is more likely to be Early Capitalism. It could be that Capitalism will outlive the stars.
#15083059
"late"

Late Capitalism and Late-Stage Capitalism are synonymous,

And they don't mean capitalism is dead, only dying.

A word of advice...

Appearances

If you want to come across in an argument as someone who knows what they are talking about, even if you know next to nothing and it's complete bollocks, use the technical terms as they are defined.


:)
#15083068
SolarCross wrote:a fantasy

The financialization of capital.

"Fictitious capital" (financialization) in mature Capitalism.

At first, the capitalistic mode of production forces out the workers. Now, it forces out the capitalists, and reduces them, just as it reduced the workers, to the ranks of the surplus-population, although not immediately into those of the industrial reserve army.

Engels, Anti-Dühring, §24. (1878)

And 100 years later you can see how far this has advanced.

Long-term relationship banking has been replaced by short-term transactional banking, often involving opportunistic financial engineering; the maximisation of profits, in pursuit of shareholder value, has meant an increasing reliance on intrinsically risky proprietary trading; and, for the traders, the annual lure of the seven-figure bonus has seen them systematically engaged in ludicrously one-way bets – one-way because they are not personally responsible for the losses (‘other people’s money’), quite unlike the old City’s salutary partnership structure.

Daily Telegraph (1986)

To sub-prime derivatives between 2004 -2006.

When short-term speculation and gambling are more profitable than the development of the productive forces, then the system’s useful role is over.
Last edited by ingliz on 09 Apr 2020 18:58, edited 2 times in total.
#15083071
Except money counterfeiting is older than ancient pagan Rome. If it gets out of control, sure it will disturb the economy, possibly to the point of a crisis. Who knows but the collapse of the bronze age civilisations and their vast trade networks may have collapsed because of pervasive counter-fieting. The bronze age civilisations were built on the international trade of copper and tin particularly tin which is not so common. But without a confidence in the true value of the money then why would the tin miners ever sell? If they do not sell then there is no tin for bronze manufacture. The current age has this same problem but while a correction is inevitable (and may come very soon) that has little to do with capitalism and collapse will only be a reset because people still need to trade unless we go back the stone age. Gold and silver still exists and there are even new kinds of hard money out there like bitcoin. If people can not trust the central banks not to hyper-inflate then they will just find a better alternative. We have been here before many times and we just go back to hard money we don't go to unicorn communism.
#15083074
I wonder if there are anyone without a Late-Roman-Empire feeling in their guts, like Brexit is the beginning of the separation of the Western and Eastern parts of the West. Capitalism, or rather Western capitalism also must have an early, a mature, and a late stage as feudalism or Roman Civilisation did, and as the current world order is changing and shaking, it rather seems to be the late stage of Western capitalism, or Western Civilisation as it is too perhaps.
#15083076
SolarCross wrote:we just go back to hard money

The system is beyond our control. Without fiat money capitalism as is would collapse in a heap.
Last edited by ingliz on 09 Apr 2020 19:44, edited 1 time in total.
#15083078
ingliz wrote:The system is beyond our control. Without fiat money late-stage capitalism would collapse in a heap.

There is no system except in an emergent sense like an eco-system. Fiat money will cause a collapse if the money printers can not maintain some discipline. As it is they are getting worse. There are plenty of hard money alternatives and human beings are endlessly adaptable, so chin up, it will all work out before long. :)
#15083088
SolarCross wrote:Gold and silver still exists and there are even new kinds of hard money out there like bitcoin.

bitcoin, etc...

Pity the poor worker.

A money supply rule that does not respond to shifts in money demand generates large fluctuations in prices. And since society tends not to tolerate outright declines in wages, these fluctuations often carry over into unemployment.


:*(
Last edited by ingliz on 10 Apr 2020 11:47, edited 1 time in total.
#15083095
@SolarCross, Bitcoin is fundamentally worthless. It is basically the same as handing over a piece of paper with the letters IOU written on it. Currency has national assets and a worth due to taxation to support it. What exactly has Bitcoin?

Currency will never die. It will only hyperinflate. Although it isn't its fictional value rate that will destroy capitalism. It is the requirement of the amount of unsustainable debt that is needed to be paid back that will break it.
#15083098
Donna wrote:Aww that's cute, he thinks a little bit of "discipline" will save a system that is rotting from the inside out.

Honestly I expect the fiat system to collapse or at least suffer a major devaluation. Look out for your starbuck's latte being priced at $10,000 and your hourly rate as a barrista being $30,000 per hour, :lol: . Zimbabwe has been there and so has Germany back in the twenties. Most countries have at some time run the printing presses hot, yet life goes on. People just put their prices up, and up and up to compensate. Did you know that under the last Tzar the Russian Rouble had parity with the US dollar? The exchange rate now something like 33,000 to 1 :lol: . and it is not like the US dollar has maintained value over the last century, it has leaked too. So yeah life goes on. Money counterfeiting is a problem but not a permanently fatal one.
#15083103
@SolarCross

33,000 to 1

1 USD=74.6048 RUB

B0ycey wrote:Bitcoin is fundamentally worthless

@B0ycey is correct.

Bubble = Market Price - Intrinsic Value

Since intrinsic value of BTC = 0, market price consists purely of a bubble.


:lol:
#15083112
ingliz wrote:@SolarCross


1 USD=74.6048 RUB


Sorry you are right, I was thinking of the value of rouble against bitcoin way back when I was trading them.
ingliz wrote:@B0ycey is correct.

Bubble = Market Price - Intrinsic Value

Since intrinsic value of BTC = 0, market price consists purely of a bubble.

:lol:

Hardly anyone understands bitcoin especially old people so it is not surprising you do not understand the value of it. The value of bitcoin is that it is payment system that is independent of any banks and has a transparent and set inflation model so that it is virtually like a hard money. It is a fiat system that has tricks for making like a hard money such as gold. Gold is true hard money but it is somewhat problematic for distance transactions because it has mass. Making distant transfers with gold then will either be expensive (courier) or involve digital receipts which are iffy because while the gold might be hard money the receipts could be counterfeited easily). This was what went wrong with the gold standard, the banks holding the gold spent fake receipts. Bitcoin solves this issue, no banks are needed at all.
#15083159
BACK ON TOPIC!



IF this is true and it gets out, then Labour is proper fucked for the next election. They would do better to dig Corbyn back out of his retirement home. Corbyn may be a low IQ crank and a traitor but at least he is not a kiddie fiddler.
#15083319
Idiot. It’s well known to be extremely difficult to get a successful prosecution in cases such as those. An acquittal would have been disastrous.

Better to wait until the evidence is rock solid.

And when you say ‘we’ have already had a socialist government, exactly who do you mean by ‘we’ ? Certainly not me
#15092540
Wtf Corbyn is no traitor. :eek:

Due to the silly voting system (majority vote, "winner takes all") in UK his last election looked bad on paper - but if UK would have a regular voting (aka proportional representation) system, then he would have looked very good, though he still wouldnt have won.

And his problem isnt low intelligence, his problem is he is too soft and wants to please everyone. Even his friggin inner-party opponents.

Also, I dont think getting Corbyn back will work. Not even by a long short. Labour is completely f-ed. The quicker the UK people realized that, discard them and start a new workers party, the better. Pretty much the same as in USA with the democrats.
#15092543
SolarCross wrote: Zimbabwe has been there and so has Germany back in the twenties.


Germany had Hyperflation in the 1920s because foreigners controlled our central bank and massively missteered it. Bottom line, it was politically opportune to blame Germany for WW1, and to try to make them pay all costs. The final consequence though was that german money became completely worthless.

And who cares about developing countries ? UK was the first industrialized country on the planet.



SolarCross wrote: Hardly anyone understands bitcoin [...]


I wouldnt be so arrogant in your shoes, since you clearly dont understand it either.

You emit what I call blind technology devoutness, which is an at least annoying, if not dangeous combination of not actually understanding technology and yet blindly believing in it.

Bitcoin is a horrendously misdesigned system that comes with many problems, such as wasting energy and not being able to adopt to changing circumstances, and is completely unfit to be used as a general currency.
Last edited by Negotiator on 18 May 2020 13:33, edited 1 time in total.
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