[Istanbuller]

This man started the relations:

Kaiser at Istanbul:



Kaiser's gift to the Sultan:

[Atlantis]

@Istanbuller, just goes to show that the man was demented. He had a birth defect, poor bugger. He was so popular that he had to flee to the Netherlands where he spent the remains of his days.

[noemon]

Turkey denies German military plane on a NATO mission to fly in its airspace.

YEREVAN (Azatutyun.am)—The Armenian Foreign Ministry confirmed on Wednesday reports that Turkey has refused to allow a German military transport aircraft to fly over its airspace en route to Armenia.

The plane was due to pick up Armenian soldiers and transport them to Germany for further training preceding their deployment in Afghanistan.

Some 120 Armenian servicemen serve in Afghanistan under German command as part of a NATO-led multinational force. The Armenian military rotates them on a regular basis.

The German magazine “Der Spiegel” reported on Friday that the Airbus 310 aircraft of the German Air Force was on its way to Yerevan in late July when Turkish air traffic controllers unexpectedly refused, without any explanation, to give it overflight permission. The plane had to return to a German military airfield as a result, it said, adding that the Armenian soldiers were flown to Germany over Russia’s airspace in mid-August.

“As far as I know, the Defense Ministry did not refute that information,” said Anna Naghdalyan, the spokeswoman for the Armenian Foreign Ministry.

“It is condemnable that Turkey now also obstructs NATO-led and UN-led peacekeeping operations based on its anti-Armenian positions,” Naghdalyan told reporters. “We have raised this issue with our international partners through diplomatic channels.”

Ankara has not denied the “Der Spiegel” report. According to the report, the German military, the Bundeswehr, regards the Turkish move as a “deliberate provocation” by a NATO member state.

The German plane was reportedly not allowed to fly over Turkish territory just days after the outbreak of heavy fighting on Armenia’s border with Azerbaijan, Turkey’s closest regional ally. Ankara blamed Yerevan for the week-long hostilities, which left 17 soldiers dead, and voiced support for Baku in unusually strong terms.

The Armenian government responded by accusing the Turks of trying to destabilize the region, undercutting international efforts to resolve the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict and posing a serious security threat to Armenia.

Source

[annatar1914]

@Atlantis

That is an accident of history. If the British and French hadn't occupied most of the region, Germany could have cooperated with other countries.

Sure it would have . Germany's past track record in that regard is not good. As it is, the Germanic-dominated EU has done little to satisfy German ambitions...

As it is, Turkey was the only major country not yet under their control.

Occupying a good deal of the Middle East at the time. A prize plum had Germany and it's allies won in WWI.

Considering that the "Berlin to Baghdad" railway was never built because London knew how to prevent it, the only remaining trace of the German empire in the region is a fictitious railway.

Ah yes, blame the British . Being German oftentimes in my experience means never having to say you're sorry; or if you do, not really meaning it, just being upset that you lost.

Remarkably, to you a fiction is more important than the dozens of very real conflicts in the ME and the world the British empire has left behind.

''Fiction''? The close relationship between Germany and Turkey is now a ''fiction''?

[Crantag]

Per an Azeri friend's Facebook,

Jabrail has been liberated.
Congratulations to Azerbaijani people!
Long live our president, Ilham Aliyev.

(Just reporting.)

[Atlantis]

Turkey denies German military plane on a NATO mission to fly in its airspace.

It doesn't fit the narrative of the fictitious German/Turkish alliance that Germany has been at loggerheads with Turkey for a long time. German parliamentarians have been prevented from visiting German troops stationed in Turkey. Following which, Germany has moved most of its Nato troops out of Turkey, different from the US which continues to pamper Turkey despite being constantly snubbed by Erdogan. Considering that the German army is a "parliamentary army" it's particular offensive to prevent visits by parliamentarians. Erodgan is hated in Germany more than elsewhere, still German politicians have refused to lower themselves to the level of senseless belligerence and insults emanating from Erdogan on a regular basis.

[noemon]

There are certainly many seeming contradictions in all relationships. Germany is moving towards the right direction but at a very low pace. German-Turkish trade is around 60 something billion in total between both ways and that is why Germany is refusing sanctions as it will affect German corporations heavily invested in Turkey but on the other hand there is the issue of maintaining global order and now that Germany has been thrust in a leadership position she is looking out for her own narrow interests rather than Europe or the world. Someone has to maintain a global rules based order and if not Europe then who?

In the end Erdogan and others will just go too far and force everyone's hand.

The US even under Trump has spoken with direct military action, that is much firmer than Germany has. The bottom-line is that the US infrastructure(state department, navy, etcetera) takes automatic battle stations regardless of president which is normal considering the US position in world affairs.

This Turkish war against Armenia is timed to the US elections to be safe of a US response and if Europe does not respond with her own means then who will?

[Beren]

@noemon, if I were a nationalist, I would support the AfD and demand the destruction of the EU. Yet, I'm the only member of this forum who actively supports the EU, as can easily be seen from my posting history. Thus, your accusations are totally absurd. We can only guess that you are motived by an extreme sense of jingoism and spite.

noemon falsely accuses you of excessive Nationalism probably because he's projecting, he should rather call you out for your implicit German imperialism actually, which is why you support the EU so much. It's a Franco-German (but mostly German) project basically and the whole EU is an economic-imperial sphere under German control mostly, surrounding Germany and promoting German interests, whether they're economic, commercial, financial, or political. Which is so natural to you that I'm sure you're taking this post as totally false and a horrendous offence.

[noemon]

I very much doubt the existence of a fault line between the 2.

[Istanbuller]

This Azerbaijani war against Armenia is timed to the US elections to be safe of a US response

Exactly. I believe that the timing is decided based on that fact.

and if Europe does not respond with her own means then who will?

Russia?

[JohnRawls]

There are certainly many seeming contradictions in all relationships. Germany is moving towards the right direction but at a very low pace. German-Turkish trade is around 60 something billion in total between both ways and that is why Germany is refusing sanctions as it will affect German corporations heavily invested in Turkey but on the other hand there is the issue of maintaining global order and now that Germany has been thrust in a leadership position she is looking out for her own narrow interests rather than Europe or the world. Someone has to maintain a global rules based order and if not Europe then who?

In the end Erdogan and others will just go too far and force everyone's hand.

The US even under Trump has spoken with direct military action, that is much firmer than Germany has. The bottom-line is that the US infrastructure(state department, navy, etcetera) takes automatic battle stations regardless of president which is normal considering the US position in world affairs.

This Turkish war against Armenia is timed to the US elections to be safe of a US response and if Europe does not respond with her own means then who will?

Although I do agree with you on this matter, it is not possible to deny the German argument on the matter. The idea behind the German position is that Turkey is an decently important trade partner and it is outmost important not to turn Turkey in to Syria or Lybia. Germany knows it is possible to do this and the sanctions might push the situation over the top. Erdogan is an asshole but he is not really a threat. The best way to proceed is to manage him and just wait until he is not there. I also subscribed to this view couple of years ago before Erdogan didn't loose any semblance of rationality.

Erdogan didn't become a threat for Europe but there is a problem that his actions are causing more damage to the region and our other friends and interests. So I am not sure if kicking him out earlier with severe economic sanctions is not more beneficial compared to the old plan. I am pretty sure that if Turkey spirals in to Lybia or Syria it is not worth it. But otherwise it should be okay.

So if we are going to put severe economic stress on Turkey to get rid of Erdogan, we need to be ready to bail Turkey out if needed also.

[annatar1914]

Although I do agree with you on this matter, it is not possible to deny the German argument on the matter. The idea behind the German position is that Turkey is an decently important trade partner and it is outmost important not to turn Turkey in to Syria or Lybia. Germany knows it is possible to do this and the sanctions might push the situation over the top. Erdogan is an asshole but he is not really a threat. The best way to proceed is to manage him and just wait until he is not there. I also subscribed to this view couple of years ago before Erdogan didn't loose any semblance of rationality.

Erdogan didn't become a threat for Europe but there is a problem that his actions are causing more damage to the region and our other friends and interests. So I am not sure if kicking him out earlier with severe economic sanctions is not more beneficial compared to the old plan. I am pretty sure that if Turkey spirals in to Lybia or Syria it is not worth it. But otherwise it should be okay.

So if we are going to put severe economic stress on Turkey to get rid of Erdogan, we need to be ready to bail Turkey out if needed also.

Erdogan and Xi good for the European Elites, Assad, Maduro, and Trump bad. Got it

[JohnRawls]

Erdogan and Xi good for the European Elites, Assad, Maduro, and Trump bad. Got it

Now you are thinking like a politician at least. Just as a reference point though, my position on Erdogan, Xi, Assad, Maduro is severely negative. So I am not sure if you implying that I am some kind of shill for the elites is proper here.

I have mixed feeling about Trump though but then again, European "elite" also has mixed feelings. (Also because I just understood that you think that European "Elite" is some kind of monolithic bloc)

[annatar1914]

@JohnRawls

Now you are thinking like a politician at least. Just as a reference point though, my position on Erdogan, Xi, Assad, Maduro is severely negative. So I am not sure if you implying that I am some kind of shill for the elites is proper here.

You're preemptively implying that that's what i'm saying concerning you. People are generally more nuanced in real life, which isn't always a bad thing.

I have mixed feeling about Trump though but then again, European "elite" also has mixed feelings. (Also because I just understood that you think that European "Elite" is some kind of monolithic bloc)

The only European Elite that counts, are for all intents and purposes a monolithic bloc.

[JohnRawls]

@JohnRawls



You're preemptively implying that that's what i'm saying concerning you. People are generally more nuanced in real life, which isn't always a bad thing.



The only European Elite that counts, are for all intents and purposes a monolithic bloc.

Can you please present any evidence of the "Elite" in Europe or West or US being a monolythic bloc please. It is a pretty preposterous assumption but I am willing to listen if you have any theories, ideas, evidence etc on this besides conspiracy theories.

[annatar1914]

Can you please present any evidence of the "Elite" in Europe or West or US being a monolythic bloc please. It is a pretty preposterous assumption but I am willing to listen if you have any theories, ideas, evidence etc on this besides conspiracy theories.

Anyone in power in the EU that is serious trying to leave the EU? The British have more or less left or are in that process of leaving, but aside from them, who? Nobody on the Continent.

Besides, I didn't say that the Elites were monolithic, but that the only European Elites that count, are. And note that it was you that threw in the USA Elites and ''the West'' as a whole into the discussion.

[JohnRawls]

Anyone in power in the EU that is serious trying to leave the EU? The British have more or less left or are in that process of leaving, but aside from them, who? Nobody on the Continent.

Besides, I didn't say that the Elites were monolithic, but that the only European Elites that count, are. And note that it was you that threw in the USA Elites and ''the West'' as a whole into the discussion.

You are bringing up 1 position as proof. A position that has clear benefits for one side and even at that, Le Pen or Salvini or Orban or Duda show exactly why your idea of a monolythic bloc is a bit absurd.

What is your definition of "European Elites that count"?

[annatar1914]

@JohnRawls ;

You are bringing up 1 position as proof. A position that has clear benefits for one side and even at that, Le Pen or Salvini or Orban or Duda show exactly why your idea of a monolythic bloc is a bit absurd.

Have any of them left or tried to get their countries to leave the EU? No, they have not. For them, it would be impossible, nor do they want the tribulation for their countries to even try.

What is your definition of "European Elites that count"?

The Central European ones of course, same as have always been.

[Potemkin]

@Istanbuller, just goes to show that the man was demented. He had a birth defect, poor bugger. He was so popular that he had to flee to the Netherlands where he spent the remains of his days.

You must admit, he had an awesome moustache though. Much better than that other German politician's, I forget the name.... starts with an 'H'....

[Beren]

You must admit, he had an awesome moustache though. Much better than that other German politician's, I forget the name.... starts with an 'H'....

No wonder that after two such failed arseholes (and world wars they lost) now they have a different concept.


And she was their minister of defence too.