[Atlantis]

Objectively, he is not entirely wrong, but politically, his message is fatal.

Objectively, the virus will be imported from abroad even if a country decides rigorous lockdown measures to stamp it out at home. It is also true that tourists and migrant workers are a major vector for spreading the virus, especially migrant workers living in dormitories and cramped quarters. Thus, to fight the pandemic, we have to identify the sources of infections.

Politically, however, blaming foreigners or ethnic minorities can have fatal consequences in that it empowers racists to go after foreigners and minorities even if they are not spreading the virus. It's like blaming the Jews for the plague during the Middle Ages. Moreover, the political blame game doesn't solve the problem. The Italians blamed the Chinese because they considered that the Chinese were filthy and that it couldn't happen in Italy, until it did happen. Trump blamed the Chinese failing to fight the pandemic at home. The Turks blamed Westerners who are allegedly more filthy than the Turks until the virus spread out off control in Turkey. ...

There is a thin line to tread, Kurz has wondered too far off the straight and narrow.

Austria: Anger as Kurz blames minorities for spreading COVID-19

Austria on Monday ended its second strict coronavirus lockdown and is applying softer measures, which will include entry restrictions in the coming weeks.

Those rules are designed to limit travel into the country during the Christmas holiday period, conservative Chancellor Sebastian Kurz told reporters last week.

In this context, he and Interior Minister Karl Nehammer mainly referred to the “Western Balkans” as a region from where the virus could be imported into Austria.

“We had very low infection rates in the summer after the lockdown and then returning travellers, especially those who spent the summer in their countries of origin, have brought infection back into the country,” said Kurz.

The two officials based their statement on data from the Agency for Health and Food Security (AGES).

“At least 30 percent of infections were from returnees from abroad and over 72 percent of infections were from returnees especially from the Western Balkans,” said Nehammer.



AGES told Al Jazeera that in August, slightly more than one-third of the infections were due to an infection source abroad.

Since Kurz and Nehammer’s comments were understood as blaming foreigners and minorities, there was outrage among the ruling administration’s coalition partner, the Green Party.

Vice Chancellor Werner Kogler, from the Green Party, accused Kurz of a “lack of sensitivity”.

One Twitter user said: “My Balkan mum has coronavirus. She didn’t get infected in the Balkans either, but in the hospital where she works. People ‘from the Balkans and Turkey’ clean Austrian hospitals and care for … infected people, while they have not seen their families at home for a year.”

In a follow-up interview, Kurz said: “Everyone who knows me knows how closely I am connected with the Western Balkans and in my view, every accusation is therefore somewhat absurd.

“Since I was foreign minister, I have been fighting for the Western Balkan states to gain an EU-membership.”

He added that he visits the Western Balkans often, has friendly relations with governments there, and enjoys friendships with people with Western Balkan origins.

But the damage was already done.

“The statement made by Chancellor Sebastian Kurz last week is counterproductive and narrow-minded. Playing people against each other and making scapegoats of minorities is an anti-human rights strategy,” Heinz Patzelt, head of Amnesty International Austria, told Al Jazeera.

“The COVID-19 pandemic is a global challenge. If there is one thing the past few months of crisis have shown, it is that selfishness and purely national initiatives are not getting us anywhere. That is why we need politicians whose sense of responsibility does not end at the national border. An Austria-first policy cannot be the way to find the best solution.”

[ThirdTerm]

“At least 30 percent of infections were from returnees from abroad and over 72 percent of infections were from returnees especially from the Western Balkans,” said Nehammer.

This statement is based on official figures. Out of 30 percent of cases attributed to returning travellers, those from the Western Balkans are responsible for 21 percent of them. Europeans should have cancelled their summer holidays. A variant of the coronavirus that originated in Spain (20A.EU1) now accounts for most of the new cases reported in several countries in Western Europe. Travellers are twice more likely to get infected with Covid-19 compared to the general population.

[Varilion]

[...] Travellers are twice more likely to get infected with Covid-19 compared to the general population.

Travellers are far more likely to be tested than the general population.

[Rugoz]

“The COVID-19 pandemic is a global challenge. If there is one thing the past few months of crisis have shown, it is that selfishness and purely national initiatives are not getting us anywhere. That is why we need politicians whose sense of responsibility does not end at the national border. An Austria-first policy cannot be the way to find the best solution.”

Actually a selfish and purely national initiative would likely work, but the question is at what cost. I don't think Austria can realistically close its borders for everyone, foreigners and citizens. Maybe Europe could close its borders to the rest of the world, but then a coordinated European response would have to accompany that internally.

[B0ycey]

Actually a selfish and purely national initiative would likely work, but the question is at what cost.

Only a very long and total lockdown with a closed border will do. Not this half and half shit. That was the actual reason for the second wave. Because you never got rid of the first wave. So @ThirdTerm is right. If your objective was to tackle Covid 19, Europe should have cancelled their summer holiday. But that comes with other costs, notablely economic, but social, mental and ironically health as well. Or you mitigate the risk giving people personal responsibility. That is, if you are high risk, you should take responsibility for yourself and isolate yourself. The illustration of how pointless a lockdown followed by opening up society without eradication of the virus first is best illustrated by Wales where is the UK cases are coming down and in Wales they are rising because their firebreak made them two weeks behind. Their cases will come down in two weeks because that is the peek.

[Negotiator]

1. We got the COVID-19 pandemic, and are likely to get many more pandemic just like this one, because of the climate collapse, which Austria has helped along with everybody else. Therefore Austria is NOT free of guilt for COVID-19.

2. Obviously a small country with few people has a statistically much smaller chance to be the origin of a global pandemic than a large country with many people. Therefore the chance that Austria is the origin of a global pandemic is much smaller than for China.

3. The core reason why Kurz states such bloody obvious things is that he wants to divert attention that he has handled the pandemic poorly, as did many other countries.

Austria, as an industrialized country, doesnt have the luxury of being able to close borders permanently. Therefore global pandemics will hit them, too.

[Atlantis]

Actually a selfish and purely national initiative would likely work, but the question is at what cost. I don't think Austria can realistically close its borders for everyone, foreigners and citizens. Maybe Europe could close its borders to the rest of the world, but then a coordinated European response would have to accompany that internally.

When Austria's neighbors consider limiting cross-border ski tourism because of the Après-Ski super-spreader events in places like Ischgl, the Austrians were the loudest to protest.

Austria certainly cannot afford closed borders. The solution is not to close the borders but to closely monitor border traffic with quick corona tests and other measures.

Even though Italy and the US both introduced a ban on Chinese travelers in January, they were among the countries most affected by the pandemic because they neglected tracing the virus at home.

Jacinda Ardern, the PM of NZ, has introduced tough measures at home to protect this isolated island nation from viruses introduced from abroad without blaming foreigners.

No, Kurz is a populist whose aim is to blame foreigners or ethnic minorities for political reasons.

[Atlantis]

Only a very long and total lockdown with a closed border will do. Not this half and half shit. That was the actual reason for the second wave. Because you never got rid of the first wave.

Even in China, where drastic measures were used to fight the pandemic, the virus was never completely eradicated, and even if it were possible to eradicate the virus in one country, it would be reintroduced from abroad sooner or later.

We are all in the same boat, as long as the virus is not eradicated everywhere, it'll always come back.

A hard and short lockdown to drastically reduce infections is better than half-measures dragged on forever; however, it's an illusion to think that the virus can be eradicated in one country. Therefore, even after the lockdown is lifted, constant monitoring and tough measures that kick in automatically when infections rise again are needed.

The success in reducing exponential growth during the first wave and all the talk about "hygiene concepts" gave people the illusion that the pandemic was over. It wasn't. It has come back with a vengeance because of people's complacency.

The "hygiene concepts" were to allow normal economic activity despite the virus; however, concepts are useless when people don't respect them. What's the point of wearing a mask for a minute when walking into a restaurant, if people then sit at the table for hours without masks? Most restaurants can't operate profitably if they were to guarantee sufficient distances between guests. People are fooled into thinking the concept will protect them, but they ignore that it all depend on how the concepts are implemented.

[B0ycey]

Even in China, where drastic measures were used to fight the pandemic, the virus was never completely eradicated, and even if it were possible to eradicate the virus in one country, it would be reintroduced from abroad sooner or later.

We are all in the same boat, as long as the virus is not eradicated everywhere, it'll always come back.

A hard and short lockdown to drastically reduce infections is better than half-measures dragged on forever; however, it's an illusion to think that the virus can be eradicated in one country. Therefore, even after the lockdown is lifted, constant monitoring and tough measures that kick in automatically when infections rise again are needed.

The success in reducing exponential growth during the first wave and all the talk about "hygiene concepts" gave people the illusion that the pandemic was over. It wasn't. It has come back with a vengeance because of people's complacency.

The "hygiene concepts" were to allow normal economic activity despite the virus; however, concepts are useless when people don't respect them. What's the point of wearing a mask for a minute when walking into a restaurant, if people then sit at the table for hours without masks? Most restaurants can't operate profitably if they were to guarantee sufficient distances between guests. People are fooled into thinking the concept will protect them, but they ignore that it all depend on how the concepts are implemented.

By and large I agree with this. But the question remains what is the stategy given the vaccine gives 90-180 days immunity and that is it? Are we going to vaccine the whole world every 3 months?

The more I read up on this the more I am sure lockdowns are not the solution now. They never were, but now we have the data to confirm it. All governments need to be honest with the public and tell them they have to take responsibility for themselves. Because even with the Oxford vaccine, it might be cost effective and logistic productive but we cannot produce enough to defeat this virus - or not at the time scale required. Darwinism has won and now we need to work out a stategy that won't ruin the economy and is actually possible to execute. And I totally agree that we need to work together on this. We need to put politics to one side. Because this virus doesn't not respect borders. It doesn't stop just because you speak Russian or Mandarin or whoever your foe is this month to the next. No profit should come from this vaccine either. And I suppose all governments need to be given a fair quota that isn't determined by your GDP. We should vaccine the vulnerable only and they should have it regular like the flu vaccine rather than think vaccinating your entire populous is a solution given the sustainablity of the vaccine. We also should not blame anyone for this like your OP point say. And you were right Kurz should watch his language.

Or that is my opinion on the matter anyways.

[Atlantis]

The more I read up on this the more I am sure lockdowns are not the solution now. They never were, but now we have the data to confirm it.

@B0ycey, we have been through this before. What you say is wrong. All the data show that lockdowns work the way they are intended to. Nobody wants a lockdown, but when containment fails and you have exponential growth: the ONLY SOLUTION is a lockdown. Every single country that used half, full or no lockdown proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

All governments need to be honest with the public and tell them they have to take responsibility for themselves.

We have seen in the last 10 months that people WILL NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY. Not even in Sweden, much less in places like the US. The government needs to set down tough rules and tough fines to punish violation. That will result in antigovernment protests from the lunatic fringe, but there is no other way. The individual is powerless if the government doesn't punish violation.

Because even with the Oxford vaccine, it might be cost effective and logistic productive but we cannot produce enough to defeat this virus - or not at the time scale required.

Boris really fooled you all. The Oxford vaccine will be delayed by several months. The UK's vaccine jingoism is based on blatant lies just like Brexit. The UK is taking a gamble with an emergency approval of a vaccine developed in the EU by claiming that the UK has better science than the EU even though the UK had nothing to do with the vaccine development.

Johnson's government has mismanaged the corona response from the beginning. Instead of doing the right thing now, he's trying to score political points with the emergency approval even though it risks reducing confidence in the vaccine and strengthen the antivaxxer lobby. Whatever he does, it's nefarious.

the question remains what is the stategy given the vaccine gives 90-180 days immunity and that is it? Are we going to vaccine the whole world every 3 months?

Even if that were the case, it wouldn't be a problem. The cost of the vaccine would be tremendously reduced if such huge quantities were needed. Nobody knows how long immunity will last, but chances are that the mRNA vaccine will provide several years or even life-long immunity.

It's a totally new technology that'll revolutionize vaccines and vaccine production. One risk is that the new mutation due to mink farming may make the vaccine ineffective, but in that case, it would be relatively easy to develop a new vaccine using the same mRNA delivery method.

[B0ycey]

We have seen in the last 10 months that people WILL NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY. Not even in Sweden, much less in places like the US. The government needs to set down tough rules and tough fines to punish violation. That will result in antigovernment protests from the lunatic fringe, but there is no other way. The individual is powerless if the government doesn't punish violation.

If you cannot take responsibility for yourself, I don't see why you should expect someone else to do it for you. Although America is a special case. This is a political issue over there. Trump has executed national self harm. Not even Bolsonaro has done that. They will be lucky to get significant uptake of the vaccine in red states now with Trump.

As for fines or punishing violations, I have no issue on that. There is a huge difference with preventive measures and lockdowns that I doubt we will ever see agreement on. Lockdowns have negative consequences that even today I am not sure we have seen the full picture of.

Boris really fooled you all. The Oxford vaccine will be delayed by several months. The UK's vaccine jingoism is based on blatant lies just like Brexit. The UK is taking a gamble with an emergency approval of a vaccine developed in the EU by claiming that the UK has better science than the EU even though the UK had nothing to do with the vaccine development.

Boris doesn't fool me. I don't listen to a word he says. I don't know about the delays of this vaccine in particular. I just know it is cheap and can be transferred easily. That is important given the situation. This vaccine, regardless where it is made, will be an important step in breaking this clusterfuck - are least for the early days given its cost.

As for your point on quick approval. I agree. It was too quick. I don't doubt it's safe or that we didn't do the correct checks. It's just as we rushed it through, people will question that. And as it happens, that includes me. I understand we can't wait three years for a full evaluation, but given the potential risk, I would hate this vaccine to be mandatory.

Even if that were the case, it wouldn't be a problem. The cost of the vaccine would be tremendously reduced if such huge quantities were needed. Nobody knows how long immunity will last, but chances are that the mRNA vaccine will provide several years or even life-long immunity.

That's a huge assumption given the data. We have to assume immunity will fade. I have no issue with vaccination everyone as it happens. I just think that as it is likely to need annual boosters, I would focus on the at risk stategy rather than everyone as the former will create a continued logistical problem that I doubt can be ever be solved. But given the stakes, perhaps those who want to take it and can be disciplined to take it annually as well should have that option.

It's a totally new technology that'll revolutionize vaccines and vaccine production. One risk is that the new mutation due to mink farming may make the vaccine ineffective, but in that case, it would be relatively easy to develop a new vaccine using the same mRNA delivery method.

It will mutate eventually. Especially if you cannot eradicate it. Which again means annual boosters. Is that possible for the entire population every year? Probably not. So I do believe we need to plan ahead as this will remain forever and act according now rather than pretend that vaccines are a sliver bullet.

[Rugoz]

Austria certainly cannot afford closed borders. The solution is not to close the borders but to closely monitor border traffic with quick corona tests and other measures.

Switzerland has approx. 2.2 million border crossings every day. Austria might have less, but still far too many to test or quarantine even a small fraction.

Even though Italy and the US both introduced a ban on Chinese travelers in January, they were among the countries most affected by the pandemic because they neglected tracing the virus at home.

The ban was too late.

Jacinda Ardern, the PM of NZ, has introduced tough measures at home to protect this isolated island nation from viruses introduced from abroad without blaming foreigners.

By closing the borders for almost everyone. Try getting into NZ. Of course there's no point in blaming foreigners, but at the same it's obvious they must be kept out or quarantined upon entry.

No, Kurz is a populist whose aim is to blame foreigners or ethnic minorities for political reasons.

Sure.

It will mutate eventually. Especially if you cannot eradicate it. Which again means annual boosters. Is that possible for the entire population every year? Probably not.

Easily, if people want it. I get a flu shot every year. What's supposed to be the problem?

[B0ycey]

Easily, if people want it. I get a flu shot every year. What's supposed to be the problem?

Supply, administrators, infrastructure, logistics and planning.

[Rugoz]

Supply, administrators, infrastructure, logistics and planning.

Why? Apparently we can vaccinate the entire population until mid 2021 or so, with a never-before used vaccine type developed in record time. After that repeating it every year should be easy-peasy.

[B0ycey]

Why? Apparently we can vaccinate the entire population until mid 2021 or so, with a never-before used vaccine type developed in record time. After that repeating it every year should be easy-peasy.

Have you? Or are they ordered?

And I think you are underestimating the effort. It will be difficult to vaccinate everyone once. And I doubt it will be done in a year. And then you will have to repeat it. And who are these administrators? And are we going to produce other drugs or just pump this one out constantly? Then there is the cost of Doing this. I could go on. But I think I have made my point.

[Rugoz]

Have you? Or are they ordered?

And I think you are underestimating the effort. It will be difficult to vaccinate everyone once. And I doubt it will be done in a year. And then you will have to repeat it. And who are these administrators? And are we going to produce other drugs or just pump this one out constantly? Then there is the cost of Doing this. I could go on. But I think I have made my point.

It's what officials say.

Once the supply chains exist for development and production is should be easy to repeat every year. Building up the capacity is what's costly and slow.

[Atlantis]

If you cannot take responsibility for yourself, I don't see why you should expect someone else to do it for you.

We live in a collective the individual cannot control. I can take all the precautions I want, if others cough me in the face without masks because they deny the existence of the virus, I cannot defend myself since I can't just punch them all in the face. The government needs to establish clear rules about wearing masks, keeping distances, etc., so that the individual can defend herself against violations.

That's why it's not enough for individuals to "take responsibility". Obviously, every individual has to act in a responsible way but since there are invariably people who don't, the government needs to lay down the law.

As for your point on quick approval. I agree. It was too quick. I don't doubt it's safe or that we didn't do the correct checks. It's just as we rushed it through, people will question that. And as it happens, that includes me. I understand we can't wait three years for a full evaluation, but given the potential risk, I would hate this vaccine to be mandatory.

A regular approval would take at least 7 months, but not 3 years. Both the US and EU regulators have said that they are going for an accelerated approval of 1 to 2 months. Only the UK has decided on an emergency approval of 10 days, in which the liability for possible damages has shifted from the manufacturers to the UK government.

Other than reinforcing the antivaxxer lobby, this can also lead to a race to the bottom among regulatory authorities. The Boeing 737 Max is an example of what can happen when regulatory authorities are reduced to rubber stamping. This won't help the UK fight the pandemic because it'll take 6 to 12 months for the vaccine to be so widespread that it has an impact on the pandemic. In the meantime, infections may even increase because people believe the pandemic is already over due to the vaccine. Johnson is again messing up the corona response for a political coup.

That's a huge assumption given the data. We have to assume immunity will fade.

No, it's not an assumption, it's what the BioNTech CEO has announced. The vaccine may provide years or even life-long immunity as with tetanus or measles.

You are referring to the disappearance of antibodies after infection. That doesn't mean immunity disappears. The immune system can remember the RNA of the virus, or the spike protein it uses for docking to the human ACE2 receptors, and produce a new immune response even if the antibodies have disappeared.

It will mutate eventually. Especially if you cannot eradicate it.

As I said, even if the virus mutates as on the mink farms in Denmark, it's easy to change the vaccine to correspond to the mutation. The mRNA vaccine is the vehicle for delivering the code of the spike protein, if that changes, you just use the new code.

Switzerland has approx. 2.2 million border crossings every day. Austria might have less, but still far too many to test or quarantine even a small fraction.

I was talking about controlling the borders not about testing everyone every day. Non-essential travel could be restricted or could be made so difficult that people don't want to do it. A Swiss driving across the border for shopping in Germany, won't do it if he has to spend 2 weeks in quarantine or pay for a test. People crossing the border for work on a daily basis wouldn't have to do a test each day, they could just do the test once in a while and then get a pass.

There are innumerable ways in which borders can be controlled.

The ban was too late.

With a highly infectious virus like this, it always is too late, because it spreads before it can be detected.