France returns Parthenon Marbles to Greece, London refuses - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in Europe's nation states, the E.U. & Russia.

Moderator: PoFo Europe Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum, so please post in English only.
#15160944
The Guardian wrote:Boris Johnson rules out return of Parthenon marbles to Greece

Prime minister says sculptures taken by Lord Elgin would remain in Britain as they had been legally acquired
Boris Johnson has used his first interview with a European newspaper since becoming the UK’s prime minister to issue a point-blank rejection of the Parthenon marbles being returned to Greece.

Johnson insisted that the sculptures, removed from the monument by Lord Elgin in circumstances that have since spurred one of the world’s most famous cultural rows, would remain in Britain because they had been legally acquired.

“I understand the strong feelings of the Greek people – and indeed prime minister [Kyriakos] Mitsotakis – on the issue,” he told the Greek newspaper Ta Nea when asked to comment on his counterpart’s offer, made in an interview with the Observer in 2019, to lend priceless artefacts to London in return for putting the marbles on display in Athens this year.


“But the UK government has a firm longstanding position on the sculptures, which is that they were legally acquired by Lord Elgin under the appropriate laws of the time and have been legally owned by the British Museum’s trustees since their acquisition.”

Johnson’s intervention, though clearly aimed at drawing a line under the dispute, is bound to ignite further controversy. Last year, Greece’s culture minister, Lina Mendoni, branded Elgin a “serial thief” who used illegal tactics to take the marbles.

The prime minister, who posed for Ta Nea in his Downing Street office next to a plaster cast bust of his “personal hero”, Pericles, spoke within weeks of Greece marking the bicentennial of its war of independence.

In the run-up to the celebrations, Athens has reinvigorated its campaign to repatriate the fifth-century BC carvings, regarded as a high point of classical art.

Greece has long argued that reunification of the sculptures, displayed in museums across Europe but mostly in London, is integral to understanding the artworks in the context of the temple they once embellished.

Of the monumental 160-metre-long Parthenon frieze, executed by the master sculptor Phidias at the behest of Pericles, more than 80 metres are exhibited in the British Museum. Fifty metres of the 115-block frieze is displayed in the Acropolis Museum, purpose-built to house the treasures at the foot of the masterpiece.

Highlighting the importance of the issue for his centre-right government, Mitsotakis proposed shortly after assuming office that treasures that had never been shown abroad before be exhibited in London in exchange for the marbles being returned to Athensthis year.

“I don’t think [Britain] should be fighting a losing battle. Eventually this is going to be a losing battle … At the end of the day there is going to be mounting pressure on this issue,” he told the Observer, referring to repeated surveys showing the vast majority of Britons expressing support for the Greek cause.

As a monument of cultural significance globally, the Acropolis did not solely belong to Greece, he said. “It’s a monument of global cultural heritage. But if you really want to see the monument in its unity you have to see what we call the Parthenon sculptures in situ … it’s a question of uniting the monument.”

In a move that some believed might embarrass Britain, France agreed to return to Athens part of the frieze that the Louvre had long regarded as one of the most precious pieces in its possession, in return for the museum being loaned spectacular Greek bronzes that had never been seen before.

The positive response, made with unexpected alacrity, came after Mitsotakis lodged the request in July 2019 during talks with his French counterpart, Emmanuel Macron, on his first official visit to Paris.

Johnson described himself as “a keen scholar of Greek history” in the Ta Nea interview.

But while extolling the contribution of ancient Greece to western civilisation and emphasising “Britain’s crucial role” in the 1821 Greek war of independence, the prime minister avoided any mention of the antiquities being loaned to Athens.

Instead, he told the paper the UK was focused on deepening ties with “a peace-loving international partner” that the British politician, a former foreign secretary, said played an important role in Europe, Nato and the “pivotal region” connecting Europe to the Middle East.

Aside from boosting a trade relationship worth €6.5bn – “last year over €1.5m-worth of British lemons were exported to Greece” – he said his government was also working to protect the rights of thousands of British nationals who had made the country their home. Johnson’s own father, Stanley, who owns a villa overlooking the Aegean, is among them.

“This is the beginning of a new partnership with our European friends, one that builds on our common bonds of friendship and cooperation, but with the UK acting with an independent voice to speak on the things that matter to us,” he said.

“2021 is of course a significant year for Greece and a very exciting time to be reinvigorating our relationship with the Greek people.”

In 1816 the British Museum acquired the sculptures from the then bankrupt Elgin, who, as Britain’s ambassador to the Sublime Porte, had ordered them to be torn down from the Parthenon after purportedly receiving a permit from the Ottoman forces occupying Athens at the time.

Reacting to Johnson’s remarks, the Greek culture minister threw down the gauntlet, saying Athens could provide “the necessary documentary evidence” to prove that the British Museum possessed the sculptures illegally.

In written comments she said: “Upon careful review of the statements by prime minister Johnson, it is clear that he has not been properly informed … of the new historical data regarding Greece’s occupation by the Ottomans, which show there was never a legitimate acquisition of the Parthenon sculptures by Lord Elgin, and therefore neither by the British Museum.

“For Greece, the British Museum does not have legitimate ownership, or possession, of the sculptures. The Parthenon, as a symbol of Unesco and western civilisation, reflects universal values. We are all obliged to work towards this direction.”
#15160953
Aside from boosting a trade relationship worth €6.5bn – “last year over €1.5m-worth of British lemons were exported to Greece”

There, you see @noemon? You have lots and lots of our lemons. Surely that's worth a few old marbles, eh? :excited:
#15160961
To be honest, they should go back anyway, legally required or not. They take an entire room that can be used for the millions of other exhibits that never get seen due to lack of space. And Greece have made an entire museum on the basis of their return. For a compromise they could be the property of the UK and Greek government on the condition they cannot be sold so it doesn't matter who owns them.
#15160967
The museum in Athens is stunning and well worth a visit.

I felt very embarrassed walking round a life sized reconstruction with all the originals and copies of originals in their correct place so that you can see them in context.

A large majority of the pieces are copies and labelled with where the original currently is, mostly British museum, but many other places as well.

Imo the copies and the originals should be swapped and these relics should return to their rightful place, instead of hidden away.
#15160974
In order to find a fair solution to this dispute we need to find a way to balance "doing the right thing" with "continuing to wind the Greeks up", because the latter is fun.

My proposal: return the marbles to Greece, but only if the Greek government signs some sort ot statement saying that the Homer was originally born in Birmingham, meaning the Iliad and Odyssey are really British.

:excited:
#15160984
skinster wrote:If the Brits do this then other nations might demand their stuff back and then there'll be nothing left in British museums. :(


The British museum can have the copies currently in Athens, and Athens can have the original back.
#15160993
While I personally disagree with the UK and believe the Elgin marbles should be returned as soon as possible, the UK has reasons for keeping them.

One of the arguments I read was that since the classical world of Greece and Rome was so influential on western civilisation, we all share in this common heritage and so all of us westerners have these marbles as part of our history, heritage, and culture.

But I can see one or two problems with this argument.
#15160997
Pants-of-dog wrote:While I personally disagree with the UK and believe the Elgin marbles should be returned as soon as possible, the UK has reasons for keeping them.


It is racist, rude and imperialistic to call the Parthenon Marbles by the name of the thief who broke them down to loot them. It's recognising his ownership(and the methods he used) over a major foreign artefact.

Pants-of"Dog wrote:One of the arguments I read was that since the classical world of Greece and Rome was so influential on western civilisation, we all share in this common heritage and so all of us westerners have these marbles as part of our history, heritage, and culture.

But I can see one or two problems with this argument.


:lol: Exhibiting a copy of the marbles in London and the real ones in their birthplace would somehow deny the Greek heritage as common.

Riiiight...
#15160999
Pants-of-dog wrote:While I personally disagree with the UK and believe the Elgin marbles should be returned as soon as possible, the UK has reasons for keeping them.

One of the arguments I read was that since the classical world of Greece and Rome was so influential on western civilisation, we all share in this common heritage and so all of us westerners have these marbles as part of our history, heritage, and culture.

But I can see one or two problems with this argument.

I have an even better argument, @Pants-of-dog: finders keepers, losers weepers. :excited:
#15161001
I really do not understand Boris and I'm very dissapointed.

He could use this opportunity, apparently his first interview for a European paper since becoming PM to show that he is a friend of Greece and Europe, he would present Britain as a magnanimous country to mark the bicentennial of Greece.

He would earn so much positive feedback and love but instead he says he'll keep them like my precious forever. And for what? He is not pandering to any demographic.

This is a religious attachment to the Parthenon marbles, something like GB's good luck charm.

It was not just Boris but nobody, Blair, Cameron and every one since they were taken.
#15161003
noemon wrote:
He would earn so much positive feedback and love but instead he says he'll keep them like my precious forever. And for what? He is not pandering to any demographic.

This is a religious attachment to the Parthenon marbles, something like GB's good luck charm.

It was not just Boris but nobody, Blair, Cameron and every one since.


Why are you surprised? They (the UK government) believe they own them due to a decree back when the Ottomans ruled Greece. Plus we are talking about BoJo, the biggest clown on the planet. He wouldn't know a diplomatic move if it slapped him across the face.

The UK won't give up their claim to these marbles, the same way Greece won't. So the solution is to share ownership of them and perhaps organise a return simply because that room could be used to exhibit other stuff the UK government have stolen but is never shown. If we can ship out dippy, we can ship out these marbles too.
#15161048
OP wrote:Reacting to Johnson’s remarks, the Greek culture minister threw down the gauntlet, saying Athens could provide “the necessary documentary evidence” to prove that the British Museum possessed the sculptures illegally.

Im curious about this.

And, in turn, how the Ottoman government and their bureaucrats viewed themselves in the territory of modern Athens/Greece.
#15161051
noemon wrote:This is a religious attachment to the Parthenon marbles, something like GB's good luck charm.

It was not just Boris but nobody, Blair, Cameron and every one since they were taken.

Honestly, the only "principle" involved here is the obvious fact that if the UK gives the Parthenon marbles back to Greece, they have to do the same with all the other stuff they looted over the years. It's infuriating, but until Britain is well and truly humbled and weakened it just ain't gonna happen. :|

I'm sure the Queen would be a very sad panda if she had to give the Koh-i-Noor back to Pakistan or India. :*(
#15161052
I remember that David Cameron once said that he was against returnism during a visit to India. The British Museum is full of those items, which are claimed by legitimate owners. Britain cannot make an exception and return the Greek sculptures to Greece, when India and China are waiting on the sidelines. The British Museum was my favorite place to hang around when I was a student.
Russia-Ukraine War 2022

@Godstud did you ever have to go through any of […]

@FiveofSwords Bamshad et al. (2004) showed, […]

Let's set the philosophical questions to the side[…]

It's the Elite of the USA that is "jealous&q[…]