[noemon]

They absolutely should be in Greece. But they’re not. Why? What were the motives?

It’s almost as if the Brits see themselves as being synonymous with the Greeks.

It's the same replacement theology Christians engage with the Israelites and that demands seeing the rightful people either as non-existent or as inferior.

It is ultra-racism on the nth.

[Rugoz]

The British were the ones who tore it down systematically and intentionally.

The Venetians were mentioned by myself as well but their destruction of the Parthenon a few years before the British was more accidental than intentional and it was not so that they can carry it away.

And the most important thing is that this Venetian story is a distraction and way overblown. When Elgin tore the marbles down they were in place, intact which means that the entire structure was unified as the frieze run along the entire building.

Systematically? The marbles are only a small part of the of Partheon, or did they take other parts as well? Besides weren't the marbles removed anyway and stored in a Museum?

When I look at the Partheon today, it's cleary random destruction that caused the most damage.

The Venetians fired at Turkish troops hiding there, it was hardly an accident.

[ness31]

It's the same replacement theology Christians engage with the Israelites and that demands seeing the rightful people either as non-existent or as inferior.

It is ultra-racism on the nth.

I guess you can interpret it like that. I didn’t even know that was a thing..

[noemon]

Systematically? The marbles are only a small part of the of Partheon, or did they take other parts as well? Besides weren't the marbles removed anyway and stored in a Museum?

When I look at the Partheon today, it's cleary random destruction that caused the most damage.

The Venetians fired at Turkish troops hiding there, it was hardly an accident.

When you look at the Parthenon now, you see the entire ceiling missing and a lot of the columns that supported it, when Elgin was there that was not the case. The Frieze was in place in the ceiling along the entire building, which means that the Parthenon was almost intact.

The story of Venetians shooting at Turks hiding in the Parthenon is more of a folk story to accommodate the British and to moderate Greek feelings towards the British.

Do you know which part of the Parthenon is the frieze? The part between the roof and the columns. The red and blue:

[Rugoz]

When you look at the Parthenon now, you see the entire ceiling missing and a lot of the columns that supported it, when Elgin was there that was not the case. The Frieze was in place in the ceiling along the entire building, which means that the Parthenon was almost intact.

After the explosion, the Parthenon’s structural integrity was destroyed forever. The temple, which had withstood two millennia of earthquakes and warfare nearly intact, was now but a shell of its former self. Its entire midsection was gone and the architraves (huge marble blocks above the colonnade, which tied the columns together ensuring the temple’s stability), along with several sculptures, were now just piles of cumbersome debris that had to be moved out of the way.

https://aristotleguide.wordpress.com/20 ... parthenon/

That's how it looked after the explosion:

[noemon]

These are reconstructions of what people think it may have looked like and in case you were wondering this reconstruction you posted is after Elgin not before because as you can see the frieze missing.

One of the original gravoures of the Parthenon before the Venetian incident in 1687 and Elgin in 1802 had the Parthenon looking like this:



That is intact.

I have never been able to find a gravoure between the Venetian incident and Elgin.

[Potemkin]

They absolutely should be in Greece. But they’re not. Why? What were the motives?

It’s almost as if the Brits see themselves as being synonymous with the Greeks.

Bingo! Got it in one. Because of the British Empire, the Brits like to think of themselves as the cultural heirs of the ancient Greeks and Romans, as the continuation of classical civilisation. This is absurd of course - we are Germanic barbarians who got lucky, that's all. But it means that the British Establishment will never relinquish the Elgin Marbles, because doing so would mean finally accepting that our role as the continuation of classical culture by other means is no longer valid, and in fact was never valid. They aren't going to do that, @noemon.

[noemon]

Bingo! Got it in one. Because of the British Empire, the Brits like to think of themselves as the cultural heirs of the ancient Greeks and Romans, as the continuation of classical civilisation. This is absurd of course - we are Germanic barbarians who got lucky, that's all. But it means that the British Establishment will never relinquish the Elgin Marbles, because doing so would mean finally accepting that our role as the continuation of classical culture by other means is no longer valid, and in fact was never valid. They aren't going to do that, @noemon.

It is not absurd and it is not mutually exclusive.

Britain is a cultural heir but not just to ancient Greece & Rome but to modern Greece and that is where the heart of the problem lies.

When Constantinople fell, Greeks fled to Italy and from there to France and Britain, those Greeks founded secret societies and academies of learning, Newton, Erasmus, Da Vinci, Michelangelo and the entire European elite was initiated in these Greek academies that paved the way for the Enlightenment. Britain adopted the byzantine units of measurement, not the ancient ones, but the modern ones, mile, yard, foot, grammar, grammarian, 7 Liberal Arts, all lifted from the Byzantine(not ancient) textbook available across all societies of learning in Europe.

And beyond that, the Germans claim a direct line to the Greek throne by intermarrying with the Medieval Greeks, from that, all Royal Houses in Europe(including the British one) claim descent to the Greek throne by blood and have elevated the Greek part to the most important part of their bloodlines by also adopting the flag of those Greek houses and stressing the point.

The problem and that is where the break started was the role of the Greeks during the 18-19th centuries, the Greeks were a major headache for the British because they undermined the global order with their pernicious liberalism and their attempts to re-create the Greek empire.

The British intervened more than 10 times to save the Ottomans from annihilation in order to preserve Ottoman authority over Constantinople.

Of course today we all remember the 1 intervention the British did for the Greeks instead of the 10 against them and the other 10 against any other who tried to take it away from the Ottomans.

From that point on, the British started to break with the tradition of Byzantine Greece and started creating a false dichotomy between ancient and modern in order to justify their own absurdity such as the myth of the dark ages, Britons and western european could not have had a dark age because by the time of the dark ages they had not had an enlightened one to begin with.

The point is that Britain is and can still be one of the heirs of Hellenism and give the Parthenon marbles back at the same time. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.

[Rugoz]

These are reconstructions of what people think it may have looked like and in case you were wondering this reconstruction you posted is after Elgin not before because as you can see the frieze missing.

Clearly the destruction you see in that picture was caused by the explosion and not by the removal of the Frieze. I bet only those parts of the Frieze are still intact that were not destroyed by the explosion.

[noemon]

That is not clear at all and is a folkstory we all tell ourselves.

To remove the frieze in the 1800's in a hurry because no papers were ever granted by anybody, one can only imagine what kind of plunder took place.

[Heisenberg]

The only thing I am witnessing is British ultra-nationalism on display trying to convince itself and the world that if the Parthenon marbles are exhibited in their original place that will bring the "end of the museum".

You seem to be confusing a descriptive statement with a normative one. To say the British government won't give up the Parthenon marbles because then they'll have to give up the other stuff they looted is not the same as saying the British government ought to keep them.

[Rugoz]

That is not clear at all and is a folkstory we all tell ourselves.

To remove the frieze in the 1800's in a hurry because no papers were ever granted by anybody, one can only imagine what kind of plunder took place.

That "folkstory", which also happens to be the one that can be read everywhere, clearly makes sense. Looting would not lead to that kind of asymmetric destruction, with the structure almost intact on one side. I would also imagine that the impact of the explosion can be seen on the remaining structure.

[noemon]

I just mentioned the Parthenon marbles to my 13 year old son and he gave me a lecture on the Koh-ih-Noor diamond, he told me how he learned that the British helped the guy return to the throne in exchange for the diamond. Stressing how they "helped".

Britain teaches the young precisely what they need to know.

It seems pretty obvious to me that Britain nationally uses the Koh-ih-Noor as a totem to wash away her racist intransigence and make people feel comfortable in their exceptionalism.

That "folkstory", which also happens to be the one that can be read everywhere, clearly makes sense. Looting would not lead to that kind of asymmetric destruction, with the structure almost intact on one side. I would also imagine that the impact of the explosion can be seen on the remaining structure.

Trying to argue who is the most barbarian in history, the Venetian or the Brit is an absurdity.

The Venetians did throw balls(or as the record shows, 1 single ball, which has been described as a "lucky shot") at the Parthenon, it's a fact. Who did the most damage, them or the British looters is not as clear cut as you imagine and the more you dig into this the more you will come to realise that both narratives are folk-stories.

[B0ycey]

You seem to be confusing a descriptive statement with a normative one. To say the British government won't give up the Parthenon marbles because then they'll have to give up the other stuff they looted is not the same as saying the British government ought to keep them.

Although it is also true that they can return the marbles without reliquishing claim and as such solve this conundrum. Besides it isn't like the British museum is struggling to fill in space.

Perhaps there is an argument for not returning them, but the significance of these marbles and what they would mean if all returned in one space trumps any fears that we will have to return everything in my opinion. It simply wouldn't be the case anyway. It is just these stones are just so significant that neither side will give way due to their significance rather than any superiority complex I would say.

[noemon]

You seem to be confusing a descriptive statement with a normative one. To say the British government won't give up the Parthenon marbles because then they'll have to give up the other stuff they looted is not the same as saying the British government ought to keep them.

But if the truth is that they will not have to give them up, then it becomes an excuse to justify that "they ought to keep them" and besides, that is not what Johnson said, he claims ownership for ever, as the elected PM, he speaks for GB.

So no, I'm not the one confused here.

[Tainari88]

Marbles @Potemkin and @noemon ?

The Greeks had some marbles that they wanted to keep and the British took them and now they are crying over losing some marbles?

Hmm. What does this mean?

The British are not Greeks. Is it hard for them to accept reality I wonder?

[Rancid]

What percentage of stuff in the British Museum is looted? I'm guessing this is the reason they are resistant. They don't want to set a precedent and have everyone one else come after them for stuff.

Yes, they should be returned. I understand @Pants-of-dog's point about western civilization, as the Greeks are the foundation of western civilization. However, I think these marbles still need to be shared on consent of the modern Greeks (direct cultural and genetic decedents). Museums loan stuff out to each other all time, I'd imagine the Greeks would be willing to loan one out here and there to other museum around the world anyway. OR... maybe it's time we all just visit Greece.

Side question, how did the history museum in Houston get a mummy? They have like 1-3 mummies there. I'm sure there's a dark history there. I'm interested in purchasing a mummy to display in my living room.

[Wellsy]

Relevant

[Heisenberg]

But if the truth is that they will not have to give them up, then it becomes an excuse to justify that "they ought to keep them" and besides, that is not what Johnson said, he claims ownership for ever, as the elected PM, he speaks for GB.

So no, I'm not the one confused here.

I have literally no idea what you are trying to say.

I think the marbles should be returned to Greece. However, I do not think they will be any time soon. I don't know how I can possibly be any clearer than that, lol.

The same applies to the Koh-i-Noor, the Hoa Hakananai’a, the Rosetta Stone, the Benin Bronzes, and dozens of other artefacts in the British Museum which are literally just stolen loot. They should all be returned to their rightful owners, but I doubt they will be.

In case all that still isn't clear enough: it really would not bother me one bit if the British Museum ended up empty as a result of its exhibits going back where they belong.

[noemon]

During the first siege the besieged Ottoman forces attempted to melt the lead in the columns to cast bullets, prompting the Greeks to offer their own bullets to the Ottomans in order to minimize damage.[60]

Elgin consulted with Italian sculptor Antonio Canova in 1803 about how best to restore the marbles. Canova was considered by some to be the world's best sculptural restorer of the time; Elgin wrote that Canova declined to work on the marbles for fear of damaging them further.[9]

To facilitate transport by Elgin, the columns' capitals and many metopes and frieze slabs were either hacked off the main structure or sawn and sliced into smaller sections, causing irreparable damage to the Parthenon itself.[61][62] One shipload of marbles on board the British brig Mentor[63] was caught in a storm off Cape Matapan in southern Greece and sank near Kythera, but was salvaged at the Earl's personal expense;[64] it took two years to bring them to the surface.

The ship sunk in Elafonisos waters.