[Potemkin]

It's obvious that the Russians managed for a brief period of time to change the narrative inside the US.

Lots of Republicans even inside PoFo became Russian apologists @blackjack21 being one of the most prominent. Since when do you remember Republicans aping for Putin and Russia?

A lot of evidence has been provided in this forum in the past and a lot of it is out there as well.

Spam-bots in FYROM(Northern Macedonia) and elsewhere pumping out nonsense 24-7 were consumed by American people like candy. QANON, Pizza conspiracies, all have a common Slavic denominator.

So the Russians know how to use the internet. So what? They couldn't force the idiot Americans to read their conspiracy-theory bullshit and take it seriously. That's down to the Americans themselves.

[noemon]

So the Russians know how to use the internet. So what? They couldn't force the idiot Americans to read their conspiracy-theory bullshit and take it seriously. That's down to the Americans themselves.

Indeed, it is quite obvious though that they did manage to disrupt the narrative in the US.

[Politics_Observer]

@noemon

We are learning a lot from the conflict in Ukraine. Some of the trauma the Ukrainian soldiers have had to endure has been pretty severe. The thermobaric weapons the Russians employed against the Ukrainians were particularly insidious. One Ukrainian soldier interviewed stated one of his fellow comrades literally got burned to the bone and was begging him to shoot him to put him out of his misery. That's some serious trauma. But we also know how to better combat those weapons too (and some of these tactics aren't new).

You have to disperse your forces so that firepower has little effect and another tactic in my view is close in on Russian troops and engage them in hand to hand and bayonet combat. That way, the Russians can't bring their firepower or thermobaric weapons to bear without killing their own troops. This was something the Vietnamese used against us in the Vietnam War to negate our firepower advantages was get close and engage in hand to hand combat.

[Politics_Observer]

That's some serious firepower the Russians have when they employ those thermobaric weapons. I wouldn't want to get hit by those weapons.

Thermobaric Weapons and Their Effects

Compared to conventional explosives utilized in improvised explosive devices and vehicle-borne varieties used against US forces, thermobaric rounds pose a greater potential to cause higher numbers of casualties with increased severity of injuries. Thermobaric munitions utilize a three-step process for effect: (1) a conventional explosive or so-called scatter charge detonates in the center of a container filled with fuel, (2) the compression of the fuel creates heat and enhances its reactivity, and (3) once the vaporized fuel is disbursed into the air, it uses atmospheric oxygen to accelerate oxidation, producing an exothermic reaction. When temperatures reach the fuel’s auto-ignition threshold, progressive ignition and explosion results. The ignited fuel vapor produces enhanced fireball temperatures, blast waves of longer duration, higher over-pressurization effects, and greater decompression effects compared to conventional munitions. Adding fine particulate metals—aluminium and magnesium powder often the metals of choice—enable the increased fireball temperatures.

https://warroom.armywarcollege.edu/arti ... th-system/

[Potemkin]

Indeed, it is quite obvious though that they did manage to disrupt the narrative in the US.

So did Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. Should we drone them?

[noemon]

So did Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. Should we drone them?

Whuu? What kind of straw-man is this?

For the record however.

Harry & Meghan have not changed any narrative in the UK, nor have they even made single dent to it. If the UK catches them running troll-farms via FYROM, then I would not put it past them anyway.

Russia is currently illegally occupying large parts of the Ukraine.

And neither of those 2 points were part of Politics_Observer's argument which you quoted when you denied that Russian bots played a huge part in the narrative during the US elections. They did play a part and as Politics_Observer stated, the American's are lucky that Trump with the help of Putin did not cause permanent damage to the US constitution, though his run is not over yet.

[B0ycey]

We are learning a lot from the conflict in Ukraine.

So what have you learnt, honestly now?

This war has gone on for seven years and the West are sat idly by on the west bank because they don't have any other options but to watch. The idea that Ukraine can beat Russia by wasting time in order to attack Russia when they let their guard down is so laughable it isn't even worth a meaningful debate discussing it. Russia will never let their guard down hence why they set up troops on the Ukrainian border to emphasis that message in Ukraine so nobody can be confused. Also if Russia wanted to take Ukraine they could do so with ZERO response from the West because the West haven't done anything so far and they annexed Crimea FFS. The fact they haven't gone into Keiv yet means they never will. It takes a lot of resources to control a state that is hostile to you as you guys with the largest military budget in the planet should know when it comes to shithole Afghanistan - so I doubt Russia will want that. Instead what they will do is take control of Crimea that was defacto Russia anyway (and they never needed to rig the referendum because most of the people living there were ideological Russian) and support the Donbass rebels. Because those are territories they can control in Ukraine with little resistance or cost against them. Which then leads to the old proberb, who owns the land? The will of the people or the chartered border? Because for Ukraine to get the Crimea back, they need to win the will of the people. That isn't ever going to happen so the Crimea is now Russian whether you want to accept that fact or not.

[Politics_Observer]

@B0ycey

Dude we have learned A LOT. It's in our interest to continue supplying the Ukrainians with weapons and money and the intel we get in return is a treasure trove, plus, keeping some of Russia's forces tied down in Ukraine or more focused on Ukraine if Crimea and Donbass is threatened.

[B0ycey]

@B0ycey

Dude we have learned A LOT. It's in our interest to continue supplying the Ukrainians with weapons and money and the intel we get in return is a treasure trove, plus, keeping some of Russia's forces tied down in Ukraine or more focused on Ukraine if Crimea and Donbass is threatened.

Why is it in our interest to supply Ukraine with weapons. Or is it the same interest for Russia who supply Donbass rebels with arms I wonder?

The Ukraine is a divided country. Where and why the fighting is occurring its because the people there want to be part of Russia not Ukraine. So what would indeed be in our best interest would be to divide the country into two. Russia would of course accept that. We wouldn't. But ultimately that is the only solution to this conflict. So perhaps you haven't learnt anything actually. You just repeat the same US line they use for every conflict. War is peace and freedom blah blah blah.

[ThirdTerm]

72 Raven RQ-11B Analog mini-drones were supplied by the United States to help Ukraine's war against Russian-backed separatists back in 2016. Some 38 Ukrainian students were trained at Redstone Arsenal in Alabama on how to operate the Ravens. Ukraine’s armed forces acknowledged the drones were being used in the rebel-held zone, including in combat situations. The forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) have downed some drones in recent weeks. It is clear that Ukraine violated a ceasefire agreement which bans any offensive, intelligence or sabotage activities, the use of all types of aircraft, any shooting, and the deployment of heavy weapons to inhabited localities. The drones were supplied by the Trump administration but Biden could do something about Ukraine's drone program, including suspending it altogether. Otherwise, the situation is going to get very ugly.

DONETSK, March 13. /TASS/. The forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) have downed an unmanned aerial vehicle belonging to Ukraine’s Armed Forces that was used to guide and adjust mortar fire against Luganskoye, located south of Donetsk, Eduard Basurin, deputy chief of the DPR militia department, said on Saturday.

"While shelling the settlement of Luganskoye, Ukrainian gunmen adjusted fire of 120mm mortars with a Mavic-2 drone, which was destroyed in coordinated action by the air defense units of the DPR People’s Militia," Basurin said quoted by the Donetsk news agency as saying.

According to the DPR mission to the Joint Center on Ceasefire Control and Coordination (JCCC), Ukrainian forces opened fire on Luganskoye on Friday at 22:45 Moscow time. The Ukrainian army fired eight 120mm mortars.

On July 27, 2020, additional ceasefire control measures came into effect in Donbass after being approved by the Contact Group on settling the conflict in southeastern Ukraine. The measures ban any offensive, intelligence or sabotage activities, the use of all types of aircraft, any shooting, and the deployment of heavy weapons to inhabited localities. One of the key provisions of the agreement stipulates disciplinary measures for ceasefire violations, whereas in the event of offensive operations, return fire is allowed only after a direct order from the command.

[noemon]

Russians are threatening the Ukraine that "it's going to get ugly" if they approach their own Ukrainian sovereign territory in the Ukraine.

Russian hubris is ugly and like all hubris, it never ends well for those engaging in it.

[JohnRawls]

72 Raven RQ-11B Analog mini-drones were supplied by the United States to help Ukraine's war against Russian-backed separatists back in 2016. Some 38 Ukrainian students were trained at Redstone Arsenal in Alabama on how to operate the Ravens. Ukraine’s armed forces acknowledged the drones were being used in the rebel-held zone, including in combat situations. The forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) have downed some drones in recent weeks. It is clear that Ukraine violated a ceasefire agreement which bans any offensive, intelligence or sabotage activities, the use of all types of aircraft, any shooting, and the deployment of heavy weapons to inhabited localities. The drones were supplied by the Trump administration but Biden could do something about Ukraine's drone program, including suspending it altogether. Otherwise, the situation is going to get very ugly.

Both sides violated the ceasefire almost every weak since the ceasefire was signed. Nobody really cared till now for some reason. There are constant small skirmishes, mine explosions or other accidents that have been happening over time since the ceasefire has been signed.

Since you didn't know this then here is proof: https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/report ... sc&rows=10

OSCE produces weekly reports which all the time have dozens if not hundreds of violations. Some are minor and some are larger i guess. But once again, nobody gave a shit till now.

[Juin]

@Juin @Beren @annatar1914 @ingliz

Well for me, this is not a game. A lot of innocent and soldier lives on all sides are at stake. In my opinion, if the U.S. has committed to helping Ukraine, then it needs to stand behind it's ally Ukraine and provide them with the assistance they require. If the U.S. makes a commitment to Ukraine, then it needs to stand firm behind that commitment and stand firmly behind it's ally Ukraine. That is my position speaking from my own personal perspective. Failure of the U.S. to honor it's commitment to Ukraine will only further tarnish and further damage our reputation globally to where others would feel they wouldn't be able to count on us if we make a commitment to them. So, if the U.S. has made a commitment to Ukraine it needs to stand firmly behind that commitment. My two cents.

It is definitely not a game. Russia still has nukes. That in itself calls for caution.

That the dissolution of the Soviet Union was a geostrategic disaster from the Russian point of view is undoubtedly a fact. Some would spin the observation by Putin as a regret at the demise of communism. Was Putin regretting the demise of communism? I dont think so. My impression is that the Russian Dictator was simply asking himself whether for Russia to transition away from communism necessitated the loss of the empire built by Russians. Afterall, China is transitioning away from communism without collapsing like Russia.

Yet the demise of the Soviet Union presented the west and others with excellent opportunities at the expense of Russia. It is not like the west had a master plan to take advantage of a Soviet collapse. At the time of the collapse the west was more than happy that a collosus that threatened it had unexpectedly collapsed. Bush was more than happy to shake hands with the last Soviet that the west would not take advantage of the vacuum created.

Yet the opportunities were there. Russia under the naive, or idealistic Gorbachev and the drunk Yeltsin was an economic and political basket case. It provided excellent opportunities for poachers. And lots of poaching at Russia's expense went on. Nato/EU crept further and further east. Closer and closer to Russia.

Now I am not saying Nato/EU should not have taken advantage of a comatose Russia and expand into the vacuum created by the collapsed Soviet Union. It would have been political malpractice if Nato/EU had sat on its haunches and done nothing. But that does not change the fact that that push forward towards the frontiers of Russia by a rival military/economic alliance was fraught with risks. It always had to be managed carefully. And with the understanding that once a bestirred Russia woke up from its comatose state, it would be time to cease poaching at its near abroad.

Nato/EU, under the so called MAP Membership Action Plan, had its sights on Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan. It may be unattainable. At least, not without some serious risk.

I dont think much will come of it. It is more like time to tally one's gains. Nato/EU fared well at little cost. A huge chunk of the old Warsaw Pact is now under the umbrella of Nato/EU. That is a lot of gain at little cost.

It is much more likely that further gains will no be at little or no cost. We have reached the point of diminishing returns in the push East.

[Godstud]

@Juin Ukraine has nukes, as well. This isn't a factor.

US should stay out of it. It has nothing to do with them and them starting a proxy war with Russia will end badly, for everyone involved. Stay away Team America World Police! Let Ukraine and Russia sort things out without your blundering intervention.

[Juin]

[usermention=78111]
It is not a game. And the Ukraine is not in any formal or informal sense an ''ally'' of the United States or it's genuine national interests. Nor is Russia an enemy of the United States, in any formal or informal sense. Nor does Russia stand against the genuine national interests of the United States.

We are on the brink. And for no good reason at all. Think of the common enemies of both Russia and America, and you should see that. A good man does not wish for chaos and bloodshed, meddle in the affairs of all nations, seek to rule over all; ''for their own good'', they say of course...

I will like to add that Old Europe- the portion of Europe that was never part of the ole Warsaw Pact- does not see a genuine interest in Ukraine. The Old Europe of say France, Germany, Italy... seriously dont want a confrontation there.

It is New Europe- the new members of Nato/EU that were formerly part of the Warsaw Pact- are the hawks when it comes to poaching in Russia's near abroad. For understandable reasons. But it does not change the fact that their interests are not exactly in line with US national interests. The New Europe I am talking about are the likes of Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia... Not exactly heavy weights

[Juin]

@Juin Ukraine has nukes, as well. This isn't a factor.

US should stay out of it. It has nothing to do with them and them starting a proxy war with Russia will end badly, for everyone involved. Stay away Team America World Police! Let Ukraine and Russia sort things out without your blundering intervention.

Ukraine gave up its nukes as part of the deals following the breakup of the Soviet Union. Actually it was never Ukraine's nukes. It was nukes that belonged to the Soviet State. Everyone- Nato and Russia- were of same mind: it was much better that Russia retain all the nukes, than have a bunch of unstable ex Soviet Republics armed with nukes.

But things looked so different then. The ex Soviet States that became independent all had leaderships that were not all that different from that in Kremlin. At that instant in time it was hard to envisage serious rifts developing.

[Godstud]

@Juin True enough.

Nuclear weapons are not a factor, however, and the mere mention of them was irrelevant. Using even a small tactical nuke would be 100x worse than someone using chemical weapons, in terms of world reaction.

[Juin]

@Suchard

Ukraine is no match for Russia without American financial assistance and weapons. I have a very good grip on the situation. Just because Russia is a Goliath and Ukraine is a small less powerful country, doesn't mean that Ukraine can't beat Russia. We have also made a commitment to Ukraine and a commitment is a commitment. We should send plenty of money and weapons to Ukraine to assist them in defending their territorial integrity. I think the U.S. should sell the Ukrainians the weapons they need to take back Donbass AND Crimea from the Russians by the use of force. The Ukrainians need to wait and be patient for the opportune time to strike the Russians.

And what prevents the resulting chaos from spreading all over the Balkans?

The question you have to ask yourself is if you were Russia what would you do? My impression, or hope at the very least, is that American strategists are carefully also playing the game from the Russian end. If American strategists were sitting in Kremlin will they just flood only Ukraine with arms for anti Ukrainian forces? The ethnic divisions plaguing Ukraine are present all over the Balkans. Some of the Balkan and East European countries are just barely stable, with a lid over ethnic tensions bound to flare up at any time.

[noemon]

The ethnic divisions plaguing Ukraine are present all over the Balkans. Some of the Balkan and East European countries are just barely stable, with a lid over ethnic tensions bound to flare up at any time.

Balkan countries are all, over 90% homogeneous after the fall of Yugoslavia as is the Ukraine. Hardly what anyone would call unstable.

I think you may mean the Baltics, rather than the Balkans.

[Juin]

@Suchard

That all being said, the Russians took Crimea because of the naval port, but this is an opportunity for the US given that the Russia has decided to go into Ukraine and it's an opportunity for the Ukrainians to take back territory that the Russians stole from them. Crimea and Donbass belong to Ukraine and the Ukrainians have every right and should wait patiently to take back that territory through the use of force. And honestly, and I really mean this, this is no joke, especially with Biden in office and Trump being gone, if I were the Russians, I would stay on constant alert and never let my guard down because the minute they do, they could be facing a Ukrainian military attack in the land they stole from Ukraine backed with U.S. assistance. I think the U.S. should keep the money and military support pouring into the Ukrainians.

I am not sure how Russia is to blame for the developments.

It will seem to me, if I am correct, that what Russia objects to is a rival and hostile military/political alliance in Nato/EU rolling up hundreds of miles from Poland towards Russia.

Russia was fine with Crimea and Donbass as part of Ukraine. From the fall of the Soviet Union to the Maidan in 2014 Russia did not bother Ukraine. There was even a lease for Russian use of Sebastopol. Things only changed when an offer was placed on the table for Ukraine to join Nato. At which point a giddy Ukraine started musing about at what point the lease should run out and Russians sent parking.