Pro-Loyalist violence erupts in Northern Ireland - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15165331
Seriously? United Ireland? When we have riots going on that is people's take on this. Northern Ireland either stays in the UK or it goes independent. It will never be a united Ireland in any of our lifetime because this is too entrenched in ideology. Even if the Catholics out bred the Protestants it won't tilt anything enough to stop the riots a united Ireland would cause.
#15165332
wat0n wrote:I wonder what would Max Weber think about all this :)


He'd be lost. All theories that came out during the 19th and early 20th centuries are fundamentally racist theories where mystical nonsense were used to explain the prime position of WASP's in the world during that period of time.

All the mystical nonsense about the 'Protestant work ethic' are basically racist theories developed to justify WASP racism.

For years this has been used to place the Catholics, Latins, Greeks, Jews, and eastern Europeans into a secondary or tertiary class of people and all of these people have now grown to be richer than WASP's in the US and the UK and now in Ireland and soon enough in Israel, Greece and the Med.

It is inevitable because historically speaking they have been tougher, they work harder and the Med is as it always has been, the prime real-estate of the globe. Egypt as a country with just a little bit of stability can outstrip any other country in wealth because it is an extremely wealthy country and has always been so. It's potential is enormous. It is just a matter of organising it properly and is on course to that right now and has been for a while. The same is true for Anatolia, the Levantine and Black sea coasts.

It is quite obvious to me that the Med will be the richest area in the planet within the next few decades. This has been true for the vast majority of history anyway.
#15165336
noemon wrote:He'd be lost. All theories that came out during the 19th and early 20th centuries are fundamentally racist theories where mystical nonsense were used to explain the prime position of WASP's in the world during that period of time.

All the mystical nonsense about the 'Protestant work ethic' are basically racist theories developed to justify WASP racism.

For years this has been used to place the Catholics, Latins, Greeks, Jews, and eastern Europeans into a secondary or tertiary class of people and all of these people have now grown to be richer than WASP's in the US and the UK and now in Ireland and soon enough in Israel, Greece and the Med.

It is inevitable because historically speaking they have been tougher, they work harder and the Med is as it always has been, the prime real-estate of the globe. Egypt as a country with just a little bit of stability can outstrip any other country in wealth because it is an extremely wealthy country and has always been so. It's potential is enormous. It is just a matter of organising it properly and is on course to that right now and has been for a while.

It is quite obvious to me that the Med will be the richest area in the planet within the next few decades. This has been true for the vast majority of history anyway.

The Protestant nations became wealthy because of imperialism - they could exploit the rest of the world's resources and labour power in order to expand their own forces of production. For example, the Industrial Revolution in Britain was funded by the super-profits of the trans-Atlantic slave trade and the slave-based sugar plantations of the Caribbean. "Protestant work ethic", my arse!

Once the Protestant nations lost their overseas empires, it was only a matter of time before we went back to being the lazy, smelly peasants we had always been.... Lol.
#15165343
Potemkin wrote:The Protestant nations became wealthy because of imperialism - they could exploit the rest of the world's resources and labour power in order to expand their own forces of production. For example, the Industrial Revolution in Britain was funded by the super-profits of the trans-Atlantic slave trade and the slave-based sugar plantations of the Caribbean. "Protestant work ethic", my arse!

Once the Protestant nations lost their overseas empires, it was only a matter of time before we went back to being the lazy, smelly peasants we had always been.... Lol.


How did they get to be in a position to do that, though? It would seem to me that you are switching cause and effect here.
#15165344
wat0n wrote:How did they get to be in a position to do that, though? It would seem to me that you are switching cause and effect here.


I think Freemasonry gave WASP countries an advantage compared to the Catholic Latin nations precisely when it mattered.

Freemasonry is essentially a secular religion, accepting Christians, Muslims & Jews and emphasising civic duty as opposed to ethno-religious duty. This turned the tables for the WASP countries as Catholic states failed to keep up.

Today the open society and secularism espoused by Freemasonry is less visible within the WASP nations than the rest.

Now that the others have caught up with it, the flip is already visible.
#15165371
The Guardian wrote:
Belfast: police use water cannon on rioters in seventh night of unrest

Rioters have been blasted with a water cannon by police as unrest stirred on the streets of Northern Ireland once again.

After calls for calm this week, violence again flared up on the streets of west Belfast on Thursday. Stones and fireworks were thrown at police by gangs of youths gathered on the nationalist Springfield Road, close to where riots took place on Wednesday night.

Those involved were warned by police to “disperse immediately or the water cannon will be used”. However, those present continued to fire missiles at police, and after several warnings, the water cannon was deployed. Some of those present jeered before fleeing as the water jet came closer.

The justice minister, Naomi Long, issued a fresh call for an end to the violence after what she called “depressing and reckless” scenes. She tweeted: “More attacks on police, this time from nationalist youths. Utterly reckless and depressing to see more violence at interface areas tonight.

“My heart goes out to those living in the area who are living with this fear and disturbance. This needs to stop now, before lives are lost.”

A heavy police presence was in operation on Thursday night, with water cannon, police dogs and the riot squad in place in a bid to quell another night of unrest. PSNI officers were seen holding riot shields and being pelted with missiles before charging the youths with dogs in order to drive them off.

Earlier, the UK prime minister and Irish premier made a joint appeal for calm after days of unrest in Northern Ireland. Boris Johnson and taoiseach Micheál Martin had spoken over the phone on Thursday about the violent clashes in mainly loyalist areas.

In a statement, the Irish government said the two leaders stressed that violence was unacceptable. “The way forward is through dialogue and working the institutions of the Good Friday Agreement,” the statement said. “[The leaders] agreed that the two governments would continue to stay in contact.”

The Biden administration in the US also appealed for calm in Northern Ireland and voiced its support for the Brexit protocol.
#15165392
Potemkin wrote:The Protestant nations became wealthy because of imperialism - they could exploit the rest of the world's resources and labour power in order to expand their own forces of production. For example, the Industrial Revolution in Britain was funded by the super-profits of the trans-Atlantic slave trade and the slave-based sugar plantations of the Caribbean. "Protestant work ethic", my arse!

Okay, that's not entirely true. Germany did not really have any overseas colonies of any real economic significance.

Then you have countries like Spain and Portugal that used to be huge world colonial powers, which are not really so wealthy today.

Which kind of begs the question: Did Britain get wealthy more due to its world empire and colonialism, or more due to Industrialisation? I know the two did feed into each other.
#15165394
noemon wrote:He'd be lost. All theories that came out during the 19th and early 20th centuries are fundamentally racist theories where mystical nonsense were used to explain the prime position of WASP's in the world during that period of time.

Maybe there was at least a little bit of truth to those theories.
#15165395
Puffer Fish wrote:Okay, that's not entirely true. Germany did not really have any overseas colonies of any real economic significance.

Then you have countries like Spain and Portugal that used to be huge world colonial powers, which are not really so wealthy today.

Which kind of begs the question: Did Britain get wealthy more due to its world empire and colonialism, or more due to Industrialisation? I know the two did feed into each other.


This is all off-topic but an interesting conversation that you should take in another thread, the real on-topic part is that Catholic Ireland is now twice as rich as Britain and thus has a far more powerful pull.

Puffer Fish wrote:Maybe there was at least a little bit of truth to those theories.


For racists clinging to racist theories to explain the world perhaps, for everyone else and for reality as a whole they are now utterly debunked.

Time does not stand still, nor does it wait for anyone.
#15165398
noemon wrote:The Irish are richer than the Northern Irish, with their GDP per capita being about twice as much. Ireland's GDP per capita is already 2 times bigger than the UK's, in the next 5-10 years it will grow 3-4 times bigger than the UK's.

I do think, long-term, that will be a big factor in Northern Ireland reconciling more and more with Ireland to the south. If not politically, then in other ways, like economically, through trade, or even finding a way to share the same currency or be in a special EU trade zone, even though politically they may still be a part of the UK.

With a per capita GDP difference like that, that's going to be a huge draw.

I think though northern ireland might always be somewhat poorer than the rest of ireland due to its more northern location.
#15165399
noemon wrote:For racists clinging to racist theories to explain the world perhaps, for everyone else and for reality as a whole they are now utterly debunked.

Well, tell you what, if Ireland can reach the same level of diversity as the UK and still keep its substantially higher GDP per capita, then it will prove you were right.
#15165404
Puffer Fish wrote:Well, tell you what, if Ireland can reach the same level of diversity as the UK and still keep its substantially higher GDP per capita, then it will prove you were right.


Ireland has about the same diversity as the UK does and your argument hinges on racism but that is the by and by now.

Ireland 80% Irish, 2% Black, Other non-White 5%, Other White 9%
UK 80% British, 3.4% Black, Asian 6.5%, Other White 5%
#15165522
Ok, fine, this is a rare instance where I will retract my claim.
You win the argument.


I do wonder if there might be something more in the picture besides just per capita GDP statistics, however.

"The Irish Economic Model Is Built on Rotten Foundations - Now Its People Want an Alternative
October 2020

Held up as a eurozone poster boy after the 2008 crash, the Irish economy still isn’t delivering for the majority of its people, especially the young. A second global recession in just over a decade will sharpen popular discontent and the desire for a new model.

The Irish Central Statistics Office published GDP figures for 2015. They showed a leap in Irish production of 26.3 percent. This prompted widespread derision and was quickly dubbed “leprechaun economics” by the noted American economist Paul Krugman.

There was, of course, no way that this figure accurately reflected economic reality. The 2015 results merely underlined the extent to which Irish statistics were deeply distorted by the globalization of Ireland’s economy and, more particularly, by transnational corporate tax-minimization strategies. The relatively low corporate tax rate and a permissive attitude to foreign business make Ireland, despite vehement official denials, a prominent tax haven. It is an offshore island, after all.

These activities can make Ireland’s economy appear larger than it really is in any number of ways. Transfer pricing, where companies charge their Irish subsidiary artificially low prices for inputs and pay excessively high prices for the Irish outputs, makes the Irish operation look bigger while transferring profits to the low-tax location."

https://jacobinmag.com/2020/10/ireland- ... -sinn-fein
#15165566
First let me say this is wonderful news. Fantastic to see them showing such contempt for the lockdown. Any protest at the moment is implicitly anti lockdown and implicitly "kill the bill". I would have taken the same joy at seeing nationalists rioting if this righteous protest wasn't itself a protest at the special treatment of the IRA funeral. Lockdown fascism and the Tories new fascist enabling act are the key issues for me at the moment. They have caused me to now support de-funding the police.

I note that Brendan O'Neil, our new super populist democrat and arch Brexiteer, seems to be tacitly supporting these protests. Now this is a bit odd because when he was a Provo supporter he showed little concern for the democratic wishes of the Northern Ireland majority. It wasn't just Protestants or Protestant descendents that didn't want to become part of Ireland, but many from the Catholic community. And there were many more Catholics who even if they did want to join a United Ireland, most definitely didn't want to join under the Provos' leadership. But its not just the thorough going hypocrisy on North Ireland. 62% of Northern Ireland voters voted to remain with in the EU. I'd be interested to know why he thinks that Irish, the United Kingdom or perhaps British people have the right to self determination, but not the Croatians, the Slovens or the Bosnians.
Last edited by Rich on 09 Apr 2021 12:08, edited 1 time in total.
#15165573
B0ycey wrote:Jeez Rich. These protests aren't about contempt for lockdown. They are against the Protocol.

They are also about the failure to prosecute the IRA members and supporters for the funeral. The fact that they have highlighted this is excellent news. It means anti lockdown protesters can tell the police to their faces to get lost, and when I say to their faces, I mean to their faces. This is not the rule of law. You didn't arrest a single "Black Lies Matter" protester and you didn't arrest a single IRA member at their funeral. This is the rule of police. Its exactly like the SA and SS did in 1933 after Hitler assumed the chancellorship, rounding up and imprisoning people if they fancied, but letting law breakers flaunt the law if they fancied it as well. The purpose of the fascist bill now passing through parliament is to turn Britain from a de-facto police state into a de-jure one. Where the police are explicitly given the power to facilitate protests that they sympathise with and to go in and beat-up any protesters whom they dislike.
#15165577
Rich wrote:They are also about the failure to prosecute the IRA members and supporters for the funeral. The fact that they have highlighted this is excellent news. It means anti lockdown protesters can tell the police to their faces to get lost, and when I say to their faces, I mean to their faces. This is not the rule of law. You didn't arrest a single "Black Lies Matter" protester and you didn't arrest a single IRA member at their funeral. This is the rule of police. Its exactly like the SA and SS did in 1933 after Hitler assumed the chancellorship, rounding up and imprisoning people if they fancied, but letting law breakers flaunt the law if they fancied it as well. The purpose of the fascist bill now passing through parliament is to turn Britain from a de-facto police state into a de-jure one. Where the police are explicitly given the power to facilitate protests that they sympathise with and to go in and beat-up any protesters whom they dislike.


Trust me Rich, nobody protesting is thinking of BLM as they do so. I think people need to understand this side of the Irish Sea that Protestants are perhaps more pro Union than anyone else in the entire Union. This is all about the protocol. Foster was always against it and now you can see why. I can see this going on for a long time. The question will be when the PM and the Taoiseach sit down together and discuss how the Protocol can be amended to satisfy the EU and not if. The violence isn't going to calm down. It is that serious.

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