[ZeusIrae]

I don't think the compagnies would fear this.They are owned by the shareholdres and waht's good for the shareholders if good for them.
What's really at risk is the factories and their employees.
There's a good reasons UK,germany and Italy have 3 factories for the eurofighter,they want jobs for their population.That's the biggest problem IMO,it's hard to tell the locals that they are going to lose their jobs in the name of european integration.If the french shipyards and the german ones merged,both countries would be at each others throats to know who keep what.
There's also the fact,that the latest generations of weapon systems developped by the european countries are going to las for at least 30 g timeyears perahps even 50 years.So the effect of a common industrial policy won't be seen before a long time.

[Ombrageux]

I think arms companies will be hostile if the goal is saving money rather than more effective spending. I think they'd understand it's probably ultimately in their interest. While we'd save money on the RnD side, it would also mean the end product would be far more competitive with American and Russian arms. That means that there would most likely be increased demand for European arms abroad, to the benefit of the European arms industry.

[Shade2]

That means that there would most likely be increased demand for European arms abroad, to the benefit of the European arms industry.

There is no European industry or "European arms".
This would benefit those nations that would dominate this industry such as France or Germany,which would buy up and destroy industries of smaller countries like Poland.
This countries form the Franco-German-Russian axis that is hostile to Central European independence.

[ianulus]

I don't think the compagnies would fear this.They are owned by the shareholdres and waht's good for the shareholders if good for them.

Especially in Europe that mechanism doesn't work very well.

There's a good reasons UK,germany and Italy have 3 factories for the eurofighter,they want jobs for their population.That's the biggest problem IMO,it's hard to tell the locals that they are going to lose their jobs in the name of european integration.If the french shipyards and the german ones merged,both countries would be at each others throats to know who keep what.

That's true. If the US arms industry is any indication, regional interests will never go away. The difference between them and us is, that over there the units that compete for factories are smaller. In Europe, it's the countries squabbling over sites and the situation is historically charged. Moreover, I think government involvement in such economic descisions is just plain expensive. It would be much better to turn this over to the market place. Companies will not concentrate in one country due to the simple fact that this would severely limit the availible expertise and workforce. The problem that national governments tend to blame the EU for unpleasantries is a general one and needs to be adressed more broadly.

I think arms companies will be hostile if the goal is saving money rather than more effective spending. I think they'd understand it's probably ultimately in their interest. While we'd save money on the RnD side, it would also mean the end product would be far more competitive with American and Russian arms.

I think they would be hostile anyway. Even if overall spending didn't decline, it would still lead to consolidation in the number of companies, and that means less need for upper tier management, i.e. precicely the people that call the shots and have the connections to governments.

[Zel]

Well one of the main benefits of integration the defence sector is the spillover effects it could have on army structures and joint command structures. One main reason for the low efficiency of military and defence spendings is that every country keeps a fully fledged commmand/intelligence/equipment development infrastructure runnig within its respective army additionaly to the structures already present within NATO. Reducing those costs will ultimatly lead to more money available for other sectors or direct investment into arms and training or R&D (which is a good thing for the arms industry).

But ianulus is right which though leads to the point that the larger companies will be pro while smaller (especially those in direct competition with the larger ones) would dislike it.

[Ombrageux]

There is no European industry or "European arms".
This would benefit those nations that would dominate this industry such as France or Germany,which would buy up and destroy industries of smaller countries like Poland.

Are you willfully ignoring Britain? France and Britain are the two most militaristic EU states, so any European Defense Research would require those two to cooperate even more than France and Germany.

This countries form the Franco-German-Russian axis that is hostile to Central European independence.

You'd be an excellent talking head, just reiterating points again and again regardless of what others say.

As it stands more European cooperation would precisely exclude Russia and help European arms industries to become 1 industry and thus compete with the two arms leaders, the USA and Russia.

It would be no different than Airbus. If European nations tried (as they did in the past) to have their little national aerospace research, they will simply not be able to compete with American firms because of the sheer size of their domestic market.

[Shade2]

Are you willfully ignoring Britain?

European institutions as you yourself remarked aren't dominated by Britain. They are dominated by France and Germany.

As it stands more European cooperation would precisely exclude Russia

Based on what ? Both France and Germany are warmly welcoming their alliance with Russia, both are also anti-american and want to oppose USA together with Russia.

European arms industries to become 1 industry and thus compete with the two arms leaders, the USA and Russia.

France and Germany want to compete only with USA, they seek no competition with Russia, becuse it is their ally.

If European nations tried (as they did in the past) to have their little national aerospace research, they will simply not be able to compete with American firms because of the sheer size of their domestic market.

The more American presence in Europe the more chances they are that Poland won't be dominated by any potential European power like Russia or Germany, because such power will be checked by USA's presence. Thus American dominance in Europe is good for Polish interests in Europe. You really can't deny that simple fact, can you ?

[ianulus]

Based on what ?

Based in the fact that Russia would have difficulty blackmailing a more unified Europe. Poland alone? Not so much.

Stay on topic, please.

[Shade2]

Based in the fact that Russia would have difficulty blackmailing a more unified Europe.

It wouldn't blackmail "unified Europe" because it would be allied with it, as it would be run by France and Germany.
Poland in it would be a mere protectorate with no power to protect its rights and avoid exploitation.

Poland alone? Not so much.

Poland as independent country has more opportunities to defend itself then a administrative region in Franco-German state allied with Russia.


As I said :American presence in Europe means more chances that Poland won't be dominated by any potential European power like Russia or Germany, because such power will be checked by USA's presence. Thus American dominance in Europe is good for Polish interests in Europe.
It is Polish self-interest to make American presence in Europe greater since it hinders development of any European power that could dominate Poland.

[Ombrageux]

European institutions as you yourself remarked aren't dominated by Britain. They are dominated by France and Germany.

You're misconstruing my words. When stays out of various institutions (ECSC, CAP, Euro, Schengen) then naturally their influence is nil. This changes as they signup to new programs, in which they're veto and weight is worth as much as any large state.

Based on what ? Both France and Germany are warmly welcoming their alliance with Russia, both are also anti-american and want to oppose USA together with Russia.

Based on the fact that EDR would only involve EU members...

The more American presence in Europe the more chances they are that Poland won't be dominated by any potential European power like Russia or Germany, because such power will be checked by USA's presence. Thus American dominance in Europe is good for Polish interests in Europe. You really can't deny that simple fact, can you ?

If you want to live in the 1930s forever that's your choice. I should hope Poland is a braver and more enterprising nation than the xenophobic country you make it out to be.

It wouldn't blackmail "unified Europe" because it would be allied with it, as it would be run by France and Germany.

Look this simply is not true. It's completely false, you are either ignorant or lying. In any new initiative, if any nation says "no", then it doesn't matter how much France and Germany wants it, it just doesn't happen. The EU is no longer just France and Germany, there are Atlanticists and Europeanists, Britains and Italys, Spains and Polands.

You're just ignoring reality, you either are ignorant about how the EU is run or are lying about it.

[Shade2]

Based on the fact that EDR would only involve EU members...

Like France and Germany, who have already opened up their aerospace market to Russia.

If you want to live in the 1930s forever that's your choice.

Sorry but it isn't Poland that tries to help Russia dominate Central Europe but Germany. It isn't Poland that arranges Franco-German-Russian meetings that serve to strenghten that anti-american alliance.

I should hope Poland is a braver and more enterprising nation than the xenophobic country you make it out to be.

Poland is xenophobic because it doesn't want to be ruled by Moscow and Berlin ?

In any new initiative, if any nation says "no", then it doesn't matter how much France and Germany wants it, it just doesn't happen.

First of all no, not in all initatitves.
Secondly :Currently. France and Germany wanted to abolish that.

The EU is no longer just France and Germany, there are Atlanticists and Europeanists, Britains and Italys, Spains and Polands.

Yes, but France and Germany wanted to destroy Atlanticists and push forward their own political vision.

You're just ignoring reality, you either are ignorant about how the EU is run or are lying about it.

Why, the EU is run according to Nice Treaty, I am not complaining to this

[ianulus]

Look, you've said what you wanna say. If you want to rave about the same thing over and over, you can start another thread that anyone not interested in reading the same half-truths and ignorant drivel in endless variations can ignore. If you want to stay here, I suggest that you don't just ignore what you don't like an stay the hell on topic.

[Subversive Rob]

OK, I'm reiterating Ianlus' statement here any further off-topic posts in this thread are just going to be deleted. Also, a bit of advice to the sensible posters who want to remain on topic. Simply don't respond to the off topic posts, as it makes it decidely easier for me to pick them out than delete them, rather than pages of it

In conclusion, the topic is "MEPs urge commission to push ahead in opening up EU defence", stick to that, and nothing more about the Germanisation of Poland, etc.