[Thunderhawk]

Because it tends to be the typical attitude of Poles, who often feel they have to act self-righteous in order to gain sympathy.

Being blunt and honest has got them nothing.

In a world where propaganda has more impact then facts and policy, Self-righteousness seems to be a bit more effective then stating the truth bluntly. Shade2 is a fanatic, the Kaczyńskis are annoying, yet if it wasnt for their comments (which are later exagerated) little to no attention would be paid to them. Look at story behind the OP. It was about Kaczyński pointing out historical actions make representation by population skewed in favour of those commiting hanous actions. The comment wasnt about "Give Poland more votes" but "The system Germany proposes is unfair to many nations, if we are going to adopt an unfair system, lets throw in some additional unfair clauses"

Reducto ad absurdum, all be it in a rather weird and bady.


The truth, blunt or otherwise, is not as usefull for the media and the politicians as charicatures and exagerations. Why look at the issue of democracy post genocide, when you can write something that gets people laughing and voting in your favour? The average person is being played, as usual, and oblivious to it.
The Kaczyńskis and Shade2 are just playing into the charicature.

[Far-Right Sage]

Being blunt and honest has got them nothing.
In a world where propaganda has more impact then facts and policy, Self-righteousness seems to be a bit more effective then stating the truth bluntly.

You talk as if you actually think they have a case.

[Thunderhawk]

So you believe the wealthy and powerful should rule over the many who are not as wealthy and powerful?

[Torwan]

@Shade2:

Instead of writing another wall of text answering your questions, I'm gonna try to go the meta-level of this conversation.

Your demands are not justice-driven, as you claim, they are revenge-driven. You know why?

Because everytime I go a step your way, you either ignore it or you see it as another "nationalistic, reactionary, ignorant, <<please insert adverb>>, german trick/move".

Everything I say you twist in meaning. Everything I try is stomped away.


Your hatred really runs deep. I don't know what the Germans did to you or your family. From what I know about the occupation of Poland I can imagine that it could be really horrible. So I do understand your anger.

However, for just one minute - try to relax and see my view of this, please.

I was born 37 years after the end of WW2. My father was born 12 years after the end of WW2. My grandfathers were 17/18 when the war ended which destroyed their youth and their families. Becoming an adult was an event they "celebrated" in prisoner-of-war-camps.

Now, here I stand, not being involved any possible way in the war and I have to defend myself because of things that you could accuse my great-grandfather of (possibly - in my case you can not; if you're interested I could tell you his story), but not me, a member of the second post-war-generation. You're throwing your hatred, your anger and your spite at me using the concept of "collective punishment".

You're generalizing that all Germans are nationalistis, reactionary etc. blabla, that Germany is a horrible state which is horrible in every way etc. blabla - why on Earth should I even move an inch towards your position when the only thing I can expect from you is even more hatred, anger and spite? Why on Earth should any German do this?

Do you also put the great-grandchildren of regular murderers into prison in Poland?

[Far-Right Sage]

So you believe the wealthy and powerful should rule over the many who are not as wealthy and powerful?

If they can manage to do so militarily, certainly.

[Thunderhawk]

If they can manage to do so militarily, certainly.

Then the discussion between you and I (and SHade2) is probably over, as it isnt a fact/understanding issue, but simply a very different view on what should be.


BTW, do you consider your above view as more or less important then your nationalism?

[alyster]

Do you also put the great-grandchildren of regular murderers into prison in Poland?

Reminds me of North Korea. They have such a system, but not for the second generation, but up untill the 5th. I wonder what their statistic about crime are

[Far-Right Sage]

BTW, do you consider your above view as more or less important then your nationalism?

If you look at the U.S. GDP, I believe they are one in the same

In all seriousness, those who eradicate the weak should not receive moral condemnation, at least insofar as relations between nation-states is concerned. France and the United Kingdom declared war on Germany after the German invasion of Poland because of the threat to their own regional security; not out of some altruistic desire to save the Poles from Nazi extermination tactics.

[Thunderhawk]

France and the United Kingdom declared war on Germany after the German invasion of Poland because of the threat to their own regional security; not out of some altruistic desire to save the Poles from Nazi extermination tactics.

True, but in that era being a barbarian was frowned upon, and Germans were being quite barbaric.

[Far-Right Sage]

True, but in that era being a barbarian was frowned upon, and Germans were being quite barbaric.

Germans were quite barbaric? German soldiers were doing their job, as any patriot would. It was the German government, headed by the Nazi Party, that was responsible for implementing extermination programs in the various occupied territories. The average German soldier was no more dishonorable than the average British, French, or American soldier.

[Thunderhawk]

German soldiers were doing their job

The job of a soldier does not include murdering passive civilians. Nor do they steel from those they conquer. Barbarians, butchers, thieves, yeah. Soldiers, no. Not all the soldiers nor all the Germans were bad, but enough were to spoil the lot.

[Far-Right Sage]

The job of a soldier does not include murdering passive civilians. Nor do they steel from those they conquer. Barbarians, butchers, thieves, yeah. Soldiers, no. Not all the soldiers nor all the Germans were bad, but enough were to spoil the lot.

Again, I refer you to the policy of the German government at the time. To the average soldier, if Hitler thought the Poles and the Jews were subhuman, than they were subhuman.

[alyster]

FRS, German soldiers thought the way their commander allowed them, not Hitler. Take Rommel in Africa for example, by which it would be hard to say Germans broke any war time laws or were animals in any other way. However it were the commanders on the eastern front that really gave a boom for atrocities, not Hitler. Hitler may have shaped the views of commanders perhaps only. However the key link were the military commaders.

Secondly a question rises, did the military act the way it should or should have they been bigger oposition to Hitler. I'm not going to awnser that, perhaps only quote Erich von Manstein, "Preussische Feldmarschälle meutern nicht."

Military like always had to be non-political. It was the SS which was political and SS was led by Himmler, not a military person.

[Far-Right Sage]

However the key link were the military commaders

I believe you just answered your own question. There weren't as many generals politically influenced by Nazism as one may think, but discipline and respect for the regime in question, regardless of its leader, certainly played a role. I think it also had alot to do with the Nazi leadership's racial view at the time. As you mentioned, few atrocities were committed in North Africa. Infact, in Libya, I believe, Rommel even had two German soldiers hanged for the rape of an Arab Libyan woman. The actions against civilians were much more brutal on the Eastern Front because Hitler made it a point of the overall war strategy, such as clearing out many Polish civilians for German living space. North Africa was not to be part of the Reich, and of course, Nazi Germany was even trying to win over the various Arab populations at the time.

"Preussische Feldmarschälle meutern nicht."

All too true. As I stated, discipline was a longstanding German military tradition. This doesn't mean that we have to blame the soldiers on the ground. German soldiers fought for Germany; not for Nazism. I can disagree with Communism and dislike Joseph Stalin personally, without demonizing the average Soviet soldier who was just defending his homeland. It's a similar concept.

[Maksym]

What would Germany’s population be if you include all the deaths from the Thirty Years War? Something tells me it will be closer to a billion than 100 million.

[Thunderhawk]

I refer you to the policy of the German government at the time. To the average soldier, if Hitler thought the Poles and the Jews were subhuman, than they were subhuman.

Then the Germans who shared that view or simply followed orders are sheep - animals, be it predatory or cattle.

[Far-Right Sage]

Then the Germans who shared that view or simply followed orders are sheep - animals, be it predatory or cattle.

It's always interesting to see you blame the men on the ground for the policy of a government.

[Thunderhawk]

It's always interesting to see you blame the men on the ground for the policy of a government.

Men have the ability to think, form ideas and question policy and orders. The Germans who followed orders unconditionally for years are not men - they are sheeple. With teeth, but sheeple none-the-less.

[Far-Right Sage]

Men have the ability to think, form ideas and question policy and orders. The Germans who followed orders unconditionally for years are not men - they are sheeple. With teeth, but sheeple none-the-less.

I'll simply refer you to alyster's quote; "Preussische Feldmarschälle meutern nicht."

[Thunderhawk]

Sheeple.
.. or automatons, take your pick.

Good for the rulers and the state. Of little benefit for the average person.