Poland Discusses WWII, Complains About Numbers - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Far-Right Sage
#1247691
Poland would have not dared openly provoke Germany with unilateral military actions at any time.
However it is still partly Polish fault that they got invaded - in 1937 or 1938 Germany was proposing alliance to Poland against USSR, the Poles refused. A year later they were invaded. Their fault.


It can be called their fault that they were so unprepared for a war, but not that the war occured. The Nazi leadership never had any intention of a permenant alliance with Poland, and the Polish government knew this, so why would they allow themselves to be used like pawns against the Soviets? Any Polish intellectual who actually read Mein Kampf would have realized this.
By kami321
#1247732
Hitler could have changed his mind, you never know. In any case the "equal distance from Moscow and Berlin" was the most absurd policy Poland could have pursued at the time.
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By Far-Right Sage
#1247758
Hitler could have changed his mind, you never know


And Stalin could have declared himself an anti-Communist. Are we dealing in reality or fantasy here? Ideologically, the Poles were considered untermensch by the Nazi leadership, as Hitler elaborated on in Mein Kampf.

In any case the "equal distance from Moscow and Berlin" was the most absurd policy Poland could have pursued at the time.


I agree, but the Poles have never been known for their intelligence ;)
By Red Flag
#1247778
The poles have a right to be mad, they probably got skewed more than anyone else during wwii and did not get the reparations they were promised.
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By Far-Right Sage
#1247782
The poles have a right to be mad, they probably got skewed more than anyone else during wwii and did not get the reparations they were promised.


Then why take their anger out on Germany, rather than Russia or the United Kingdom? Poland is just using underhanded tactics to settle a political dispute with the German government.
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By Lokakyy
#1247793
Hitler could have changed his mind, you never know.


No, he couldn't - the entire Lebensraum project was based on an eastern invasion. Also, it was unavoidable that Hitler who swore to correct "the historical wrong" done to Germany in the aftermath of WWI was going to invade East Prussia for example.

In any case the "equal distance from Moscow and Berlin"


That was perhaps the only policy available, really. Neither Moscow and Berlin could be trusted. Poland just put too much value on the Western European allies card. The thing is, no matter how much had they upgraded their army, they couldn't have resisted an attack from the Red Army or Wehrmacht.

Then why take their anger out on Germany, rather than Russia or the United Kingdom? Poland is just using underhanded tactics to settle a political dispute with the German government.


Because Russia doesn't care and United Kingdom — well, I don't think there is a similar trauma about UK in Poland.
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By Thunderhawk
#1247829
FRS wrote:It can be called their fault that they were so unprepared for a war, but not that the war occured.


Near the outbreak of war, the French adviced Poland that they should station their forces near the border, as a show of force. Combined with Allied pressure, it would be "enough". When Nazi Germany attacked, forward units were unprepared for aerial attack and the Polish airforce was outnumber some 6:1, using mostly sub par planes.


United Kingdom — well, I don't think there is a similar trauma about UK in Poland.


British are considered "great betrayers" for turning their back on the alliance and giving Poland to the Soviets, no compensation is demanded (or required) for simply breaking one's word at the state level.
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By Far-Right Sage
#1247854
No, he couldn't - the entire Lebensraum project was based on an eastern invasion. Also, it was unavoidable that Hitler who swore to correct "the historical wrong" done to Germany in the aftermath of WWI was going to invade East Prussia for example.


Thank you. That's what I was trying to convey, although perhaps I didn't do so adequately enough. For Hitler to "change his mind" on matters concerning the future of Germany's relations with Poland and the Polish people, he would have to abandon the Nazi ideology altogether.

Because Russia doesn't care and United Kingdom — well, I don't think there is a similar trauma about UK in Poland.


What thunderhawk wrote is correct. The United Kingdom was never viewed as the savior of Poland, because it never really was. Poland was "liberated" by the Soviets in 1944, I believe, and thus, Poland was never really liberated until the Soviet Union itself began to crumble. Poland had the misfortune of being trapped between Hitler and Stalin, but Germany, as a successor state of West Germany and East Germany, and thus as a successor state of Nazi Germany, is no less benevolent than Russia, as a successor state of the Soviet Union. The Polish government needs to either drop the grudge or at least apply equal standards.
By kami321
#1248242
Ideologically, the Poles were considered untermensch by the Nazi leadership, as Hitler elaborated on in Mein Kampf.

So were Slovaks and Croats and Bulgarians I guess - they weren't invaded as long as they chose to be allies.

No, he couldn't - the entire Lebensraum project was based on an eastern invasion.

If he wanted more room for the German population, the Germans could start settling in Poland - I don't think that the native Polish population or the Polish state necessarily needed to be wiped out for this to happen.
As for correcting the WW1 injustice - he demanded only the Danzig corridor historically.

You are probably right though, the German attempt to dismatle Poland one way or another was altogether inevitable.

On the other hand, why couldn't USSR be trusted? For the fear of being forced to give up ethnically non-Polish territories?
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By Far-Right Sage
#1248310
So were Slovaks and Croats and Bulgarians I guess - they weren't invaded as long as they chose to be allies.


Were they? I know that the Slavs were considered sub-human, but that the Poles were particularly demonized. After all, Poland had one of the largest Jewish populations in Eastern Europe.

If he wanted more room for the German population, the Germans could start settling in Poland - I don't think that the native Polish population or the Polish state necessarily needed to be wiped out for this to happen.


Not wiped out, but made subservient. Heinrich Himmler had plans to reduce Poland to a feudal like society, with the Einsatzgruppen being stationed throughout the country, ready to wipe out Christian Poles who resisted. There's also the fact that the Polish government would never have been willing to deport its large Jewish community.
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By Thunderhawk
#1249100
Hitler's main hatred of Slavs was dirrected towards Poles and Russians, and to a lesser extent Czechs and Ukrainians.
By Torwan
#1249213
This discussion is interesting, but it's a little off-topic.

Fact is that Poland tries to increase its influence in the EU based on fear that the "big ones" (Germany, France, UK) will "control" everything. They miss that the "double majority" also calls for the majority of the member states, so technically the "big ones" cannot push anything through.

The fact that they're using dead or virtual people is really sad. They're trying to play the "Nazi drum" again. This is pathetic enough, but the real killer is that they're placing the value of one Pole higher than of one other European.

Think about it: According to Polish ideas, one Pole was more valuable than one German - or one Briton - or one French. How's that for democratic? That's even worse than the three-classes-democracy in 19th century Prussia.
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By Lokakyy
#1249336
Think about it: According to Polish ideas, one Pole was more valuable than one German - or one Briton - or one French. How's that for democratic? That's even worse than the three-classes-democracy in 19th century Prussia.


Well, for pragmatic political reasons it is important that the voting power won't be directly proportional to the population, since this would mean increased feeling of powerlessness and EU-skepticism in smaller countries.

I wouldn't also put much emphasis on that argument since if and when Turkey joins, it will appear quite hypocritical when the Turkish voting power in EU will be curtailed. And I'm so sure that will happen.
By Torwan
#1250362
Well, for pragmatic political reasons it is important that the voting power won't be directly proportional to the population


Why?

That's exactly the voting mode we have in all democratic countries.

How would an American feel if the vote of a Montana-citizen would be worth twice the vote of a Californian?
How would the Britons feel if a vote from someone in Wales was worth twice the vote of a Londoner?

That's like the votes in Prussia: Those who pay the most taxes have the most votes. A worker has one, a big industrial company owner fifteen.

Or in France: Someone born into aristocracy has votes, someone born in anything else none.
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By alyster
#1250373
Torwan, US is a country, a federation, EU is not. It's a simple union of countries currently. In best case we could call it a confederation.
By Torwan
#1250385
True, but it's still no reason why a confederation of democratic countries should adopt an un-democratic voting system.
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By Lokakyy
#1250389
Alyster is correct - EU isn't a federal state — like I said, the reason is very pragmatic (hate to repeat myself). It has nothing to do with "fairness", more with the strength of thinking based on nation states and unwillingness to give up too much sovereignty without a real possibility to affect the decisions.

Now if EU would be a federal state and there was some kind of "european identitety" in existence, the directly proportionate system might be acceptable to the broad public. But that is certainly far in the future.
By Torwan
#1250393
That's still not enough to make me accept that on a political voting scale, I should be worth only half of a Pole.

The Kaczynski's are just power-hungry, germanophobian, russophobian Egomaniacs trying to accumulate power. If you watch back, we (= Germany) did everything they asked for. After the reunification, we again signed a treaty in which we accepted the Oder-Neisse-border although we already did that decades earlier, but to ensure them we did it again. We also helped them gain membership in the EU when many other countries weren't so keen about opening the EU for new members.

And now this. Many thanks!!
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By Lokakyy
#1250397
Actually I agree with you about the Kaczynski brothers, to be honest I'm rather worried about the current Polish regime and the effect it has to the future reputation of Poland. For historical reasons, germano- and russophobia is an easy cow to milk in order to gain political points.

But you have to see that their behaviour isn't completely irrational. Power sharing in Europe formed out of nation states of different sizes with same degree of sovereignty isn't easy now and it won't be easy in the future.
By Shade2
#1250716
If you watch back, we (= Germany) did everything they asked for.

Did Germany pay war reperations for damage it made towards Poland in WW2 ? No.
Did Germany grant milion or so Poles in Germany minority status like Germans enjoy in Poland ? No.
Did Germany erased mention of 1937 border in its constitution ? No.
Did German state stoped funding nationalist organisations that contain former Nazis which attack Poland ? No.
Did Germany stoped discriminating Polish parents in Germany ? No.(and EU commission will start investigation soon into discrimination that is happening towards Poles in Germany).
Did Germany ended territorial demands towards Poland in Szczecin area ? No.

So spare yourself your propaganda. Germany has done nothing.

I won't even mention how many German murderers and Nazis were protected after WW2 from justice. Some murdered tens of thousands of Poles and became elected mayors and politicians.
Truly it seems the thought of murdering Poles disturbed German public...

. We also helped them gain membership in the EU when many other countries weren't so keen about opening the EU for new members.

As if Germany wasn't interested into accessing Polish market...And goody-it even let us join their little dominion, having hopes we will readily become their vassal...

If he wanted more room for the German population, the Germans could start settling in Poland - I don't think that the native Polish population or the Polish state necessarily needed to be wiped out for this to happen.

No, because they wanted agricultural civilisation not urbanised one.
As for correcting the WW1 injustice - he demanded only the Danzig corridor historically.

Hitler wrote in 1933 that he wanted to annex whole Western Poland, Polish borders if Poland agreed to becoming German vassal would be likely similar to General Gouvernment.

On the other hand, why couldn't USSR be trusted?

Why should an insane regime of terror that murdered milions in Ukraine and tried to enslave Poland be trusted ? Poles knew about the Great Famine, some Ukrainians wanted Poland to invade USSR during that time to save their nation.
For the fear of being forced to give up ethnically non-Polish territories?

For starters USSR wanted several territories including ethnicly Polish ones.


That's exactly the voting mode we have in all democratic countries.

EU isn't a country but an organisation of countries. It would be unfair to base voting on population only as Germany reduced population of other countries by milions so they have far less population now compared to Germany. Just one example.

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