Leftism in muslim countries - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14860768
Oxymandias wrote:@Politiks

Listen, leave the Middle East and Middle Eastern politics to people who know wtf they're talking about.

Also stating that Islam hasn't changed at all ignores most of the Middle East's history and even modern history. So you're saying that Dubai didn't change at all socially from 1914 to 2017? That's a load of baloney if you ask me.


I can only laugh at your self proclaimed knowledge. Yes, I'm saying Dubai hasn't changed in terms of self progress, mentality and education. The landscape of the city has changed a lot though, I presume a makeup on certain rich areas is what you call "change". Nothing in Dubai was created by Muslims. They didn't do a single blue print, they only glowed the bricks. Have you ever been to Dubai? Because I had. Doctors in Dubai are from all sorts of nationality, British, Americans, Brazilians, Dutch I even saw a Chinese. The Middle Eastern doctors, poor quality doctors are the ones taking care of the very poor (treated like 5th class citizens). The schools of medicine over there are trash. The 1 good one only has Western and Asians teaching.

Let's talk structure of this new Dubai you claim. Who created? Germans, Americans, Brits, Chinese, Indians. Who build computer programs? Design buildings? Even Dubai's boats and offshores are designed by Brazilians and Greeks.

Dubai hasn't change in the end. Islam when arrives ends any sort of progress. That doesn't mean they can't buy technology, have a larger than life mall with a ski field inside, filled with European high fashion brands. That means they didn't create anything that is inside the mall, not the clothes, not the store, not even the ski field. The cars aren't created in Dubai.

Life for women there remain terrible, the natives over there who are poor are ignorant, the ones with money go study overseas.

As a society Duabi didn't change, with oil money the bought brains to build a better looking city. Now, if Dubai depend on their own technology or their own professional and specialist you wouldn't be able to build a 20 store building over there.

Iran and Lebanon have structures stuck in the 80' and 90' because that's when Islam entered, if they didn't had just a few decades in Islam they would be as shitty brained as the rest of their Muslim buddies.

The Middle East with the exception of Israel and to a extent Iran produces nothing, zero, nada.
#14860851
@Politiks

Oh really? Is that why Dubai is home to a majority of liberals in the Middle East? Is that why there is intense criticism of the government from press and citizens? Is that why the UAE has probably one of the most lax systems of Sharia law out there? Is that why Dubai is trying it's hardest to create domestically grown artists, writers, engineers, and programmers? Has it happened gradually and slowly? Yes. But it's a very, very large stretch to say that Dubai has not changed socially at all from the time it was established to now. That is such a large stretch that you need substantial evidence to back that up and pointing to the fact that it utilizes Sharia law is not enough. Britain officially has a state religion yet it does not enforce it. That is not to say that Dubai does not enforce Sharia law, simply that Dubai does not enforce Sharia law most of the time.

Athens was allegedly was originally built and master-planned by Persian and Indian architects. Rome was heavily influenced by the cities of the Sasanian Empire. Persepolis was built by architects from all over the known world. I don't see how the people who made the city undermines the city itself. Once you build a work of art it no longer is yours, it becomes the worlds. That is not to undermine any of the accomplishments of said architects, simply that the city no longer belongs to them but to the people who live there.

That simply isn't relevant. 6th century Germany probably had one of the worst universities in the world or at least the worst comparable to the madrasas of Iraq or Egypt. The fact that such schools and hospitals exist is enough. Furthermore I have already criticized Dubai's emphasis on completely open free markets as a determinate to domestic economic growth so such lacks of quality is expected.

Now that's just hyperbole. Dubai has significantly progressed socially than it did years before. You do happen to realize that Dubai has one of the largest amounts of domestic brain drain in the world right? You cannot have a large amount of domestic brain drain and not progress socially. The reason why you saw so many bad doctors is because all the good ones left, because the good ones realized that they weren't being appreciated.

Um, I don't understand what you're saying here. Iran and Lebanon have always had Muslim majority populations or at least for a good chunk of their history. And just because Iran had a horrible secular dictatorship doesn't mean that it didn't have a Muslim majority population in the first place and I don't think Lebanon ever had a secular regime of some kind. If you are talking about political Islam then I agree, to an extent (the secular regimes sucked but they could be reformed) but I don't see how everything about Islam caused this. Islam has been a part of the Middle East for centuries even when it was at it's highest point so how could it suddenly not be a part of it and then become a part of it later on?

Yes, because screw Turkey, Morocco, Dubai (it's an internation trading center for Christ sake), Qatar, Pakistan, and Tunisia! They certainly don't produce anything /s

Please, go back to /r/atheism thank you very much.
#14860905
Oxymandias wrote:@Politiks

Oh really? Is that why Dubai is home to a majority of liberals in the Middle East? Is that why there is intense criticism of the government from press and citizens? Is that why the UAE has probably one of the most lax systems of Sharia law out there? Is that why Dubai is trying it's hardest to create domestically grown artists, writers, engineers, and programmers? Has it happened gradually and slowly? Yes. But it's a very, very large stretch to say that Dubai has not changed socially at all from the time it was established to now. That is such a large stretch that you need substantial evidence to back that up and pointing to the fact that it utilizes Sharia law is not enough. Britain officially has a state religion yet it does not enforce it. That is not to say that Dubai does not enforce Sharia law, simply that Dubai does not enforce Sharia law most of the time.

Athens was allegedly was originally built and master-planned by Persian and Indian architects. Rome was heavily influenced by the cities of the Sasanian Empire. Persepolis was built by architects from all over the known world. I don't see how the people who made the city undermines the city itself. Once you build a work of art it no longer is yours, it becomes the worlds. That is not to undermine any of the accomplishments of said architects, simply that the city no longer belongs to them but to the people who live there.

That simply isn't relevant. 6th century Germany probably had one of the worst universities in the world or at least the worst comparable to the madrasas of Iraq or Egypt. The fact that such schools and hospitals exist is enough. Furthermore I have already criticized Dubai's emphasis on completely open free markets as a determinate to domestic economic growth so such lacks of quality is expected.

Now that's just hyperbole. Dubai has significantly progressed socially than it did years before. You do happen to realize that Dubai has one of the largest amounts of domestic brain drain in the world right? You cannot have a large amount of domestic brain drain and not progress socially. The reason why you saw so many bad doctors is because all the good ones left, because the good ones realized that they weren't being appreciated.

Um, I don't understand what you're saying here. Iran and Lebanon have always had Muslim majority populations or at least for a good chunk of their history. And just because Iran had a horrible secular dictatorship doesn't mean that it didn't have a Muslim majority population in the first place and I don't think Lebanon ever had a secular regime of some kind. If you are talking about political Islam then I agree, to an extent (the secular regimes sucked but they could be reformed) but I don't see how everything about Islam caused this. Islam has been a part of the Middle East for centuries even when it was at it's highest point so how could it suddenly not be a part of it and then become a part of it later on?

Yes, because screw Turkey, Morocco, Dubai (it's an internation trading center for Christ sake), Qatar, Pakistan, and Tunisia! They certainly don't produce anything /s

Please, go back to /r/atheism thank you very much.


I would feel better if you said your post was really you trolling around, you can't be this crazy. Calling Dubai liberal is to die of laughter, are you for real? Then you go on saying they have a "liberal " Sharia Law.... Sharia Law and liberal don't fit in the same sentence.

As if wasn't enough you go on with this crazy rant saying "Iran and Lebanon always had majority Muslim populations" Say what? I can't with the amount of nonsense. I hope you're trolling, because is either complete and absolute ignorance, agenda or trolling, doesn't have any other alternative to this derail you wrote.

By the way, I'm not an atheist.
#14860907
@Politiks

1. I did not call Dubai liberal. That is misrepresenting my point. I stated that Dubai had the highest concentration of liberals in the Middle East which, if you have bothered to read my other posts in this thread for educational purposes, you would've known is not alot of people.

2. That is outright ridiculous. If you will, please point to where I stated that in the first place. If I recall, all I said was that Dubai does not utilize Sharia law in all legal situations and therefore is unlike most Islamic countries such as Egypt or Saudi Arabia. Therefore Dubai has progressed significantly in comparison to such countries.

If you had bothered to read the rest of the goddamn sentence you would've found that I state immediately afterward "at least for a good chunk of it's history". And not only that, but you haven't responded to my question. What do you even mean by such statements like "Iran and Lebanon have structures stuck in the 80' and 90' because that's when Islam entered, if they didn't had just a few decades in Islam they would be as shitty brained as the rest of their Muslim buddies"? Such statements show a profound lack of the knowledge of Middle Eastern culture and history that you claim to have.

You believe that Islam and political Islam are the same and because of this, you get sentences such as the quoted one above. You get vague, nonsensical rants stating that Iran and Lebanon only became Islamic during the 50s and 60s while simultaneously calling them Muslim, in past tense which throws away any excuses you have for making such stupid sentence outside of either being drunk or not knowing how to write English which are two excuses I can sympathize with.

So you're either agnostic or Christian. Excuse me for such absolutist thinking by the way. It seems to me that most people in this forum self-proclaim themselves as either atheist, agnostic, or Christian. There is also a rare chance that you may be a European nationalist conservative deist which is the first I have ever seen.
#14861116
Oxymandias wrote:@The Immortal Goon @Reichstraten

The reason why the left in the Middle East is much more "better" than that of the West is due to several reasons.

First, liberalism in the ME has a common and defined enemy which is extremist or political Islam. The largest intellectual debate in the ME is whether or not there should be a seperation between religion and the state. This is a very broad fight and encompasses many liberal ideologies from anarcho-capitalism to communism. In the West however, the enemy is very undefined and may not even exist. The two dominant lines of political thought in the West, both the left and the right, don't know what they're fighting for anymore. They have lost a goal and vision while liberals in the ME have a clear set of goals that they need in order to thrive.

Second, the left in the Middle East is small. This may seem to be a disadvantage of the left in the ME but it really isn't. The left in the ME is small but politically powerful however what gives it an advantage over the left in the West is that it's small enough to form a tightly connected network of liberals and intellectuals and, therefore, form a united front against it's common enemies and for it's common interests. Such a thing does not exist in the West.

Third, and most importantly, liberalism in the ME is open to new ideas with each of those ideologies being on friendly terms with one another, something you definitely don't see in the West. In the ME, you can see a communist and a libertarian being on friendly terms politically and even agreeing with each other somewhat and even engage in the rare event known as "friendly debate". You can see people with ideologies completely opposed to one another share ideas and agree with one another. Why? Because the ME has a completely different history with liberalism than the West has had. In the West, liberal ideologies aren't simply ideas anymore, liberal ideologies have become essentially slightly more flexible religions or dogmas to be followed and even to die for. There is so much violence between different liberal ideologues in the West that some of them cannot even stay in the same room with a person from another school of thought let alone someone with an opposing ideology.

Western liberal ideologies have in-fighting within in-fighting and no one is willing to make compromises with each other. In the ME, liberalism represents a set of practical ideas for improving society and it's effectiveness rather than representing a set of beliefs or a moral standpoint. A communist in the ME is a communist because he thinks that communism is the best fit for his country meanwhile a communist in the West is often a communist because he believes it's morally right. That's not to say that a communist in the ME won't believe in communism because it's morally right or that a communist in the West won't believe in communism because it's a good fit for his country but rather that these things are second to their main concerns.

Basically, liberalism in the MidEast is a tool to be used to gain results. This was originally the case in the West but after ideology became the biggest thing since sliced bread this changed radically. And this leads me to my second point. Because liberalism in the MidEast is seen as a tool, the left of the ME accepts pretty much every liberal idea out there. I have seen strange ideas such as anarcho-monarchism, networkology, kritarchy, futarchy, and even anarcho-primitivism gaining acceptance and even popularity in the left here in the ME. This is because it doesn't matter what an ideology is but what it can do.


Damn. 8)
#14861179
@Oxymandias,

Because all I can say was that your criticism of western politics was savage.

Otherwise....Muslims? Leftists?

Here is where I come in on this conversation:

Image
#14861184
@Oxymandias,

Do I seem like a leftist to you? lol. I have no vested interest in this thread other than amusement, but your critique of western sectarianism was spot on.
#14861188
@Victoribus Spolia

I wouldn't know, the term itself has lost all meaning just as "conservative" has lost all meaning as well. Left-Right dichotomy prohibits thinking and disregards what would otherwise be good ideas.

Anyways, thank you for the compliment.
#14861445
Oxymandias wrote:@Politiks

1. I did not call Dubai liberal. That is misrepresenting my point. I stated that Dubai had the highest concentration of liberals in the Middle East which, if you have bothered to read my other posts in this thread for educational purposes, you would've known is not alot of people.

2. That is outright ridiculous. If you will, please point to where I stated that in the first place. If I recall, all I said was that Dubai does not utilize Sharia law in all legal situations and therefore is unlike most Islamic countries such as Egypt or Saudi Arabia. Therefore Dubai has progressed significantly in comparison to such countries.

If you had bothered to read the rest of the goddamn sentence you would've found that I state immediately afterward "at least for a good chunk of it's history". And not only that, but you haven't responded to my question. What do you even mean by such statements like "Iran and Lebanon have structures stuck in the 80' and 90' because that's when Islam entered, if they didn't had just a few decades in Islam they would be as shitty brained as the rest of their Muslim buddies"? Such statements show a profound lack of the knowledge of Middle Eastern culture and history that you claim to have.

You believe that Islam and political Islam are the same and because of this, you get sentences such as the quoted one above. You get vague, nonsensical rants stating that Iran and Lebanon only became Islamic during the 50s and 60s while simultaneously calling them Muslim, in past tense which throws away any excuses you have for making such stupid sentence outside of either being drunk or not knowing how to write English which are two excuses I can sympathize with.

So you're either agnostic or Christian. Excuse me for such absolutist thinking by the way. It seems to me that most people in this forum self-proclaim themselves as either atheist, agnostic, or Christian. There is also a rare chance that you may be a European nationalist conservative deist which is the first I have ever seen.


1. Yes , you did

2. Quoting you: "Dubai does not utilize Sharia Law IN ALL LEGAL situations, there for is unlike most Islamic countries" . The problem with you is the same with every Muslim: it's impossible to defend Islam or Muslim countries under a logical point of view, specially trying to imply Dubai doesn't use Sharia Law just because a few gated Gringo's neighborhoods are like Switzerland over there. Step out of the gate and Sharia Law is the law, there's no alternative, implying the opposite is either agenda or blunt lies.

2.1- The rest of Muslim countries is a way longer list than Egypt or Saudi Arabia.
Includes Afghanistan, Lebanon after Hezbollah and Palestinian invasion, Algeria, Mali, Mauirtania, Malasia, Indonesia, Pakistan, Morocco, Sudan, Tunisia, Senegal, Somalia, Sierra Leone, UAE, Guinea, Malasya, Kwait, Albania, Oman, Kosovo...list goes on. Not one, not a single one, has decent civil rights. It's quite Amazing how liberal all those countries are. Nothing in common that might unite their barbaric way of living? I mean, there's only one country in the world where is legal to have slaves and by chance is Muslim Mauritania. There's only a handful of countries where is acceptable to have slaves, mind you they are also all Islamic. Hummm.... of course, someone like you will say is a unfortunate coincidence.

2.2- I didn't said Islam political and religious are the same, I said there's only Islam, there isn't moderated Islam or radical Islam. Islam, Qu'ran, Haddiths and Sunna can't exist without political, social, religious and judiciary combined. Being a good Muslim is to Jihad what Jihad is to Caliphate and what Caliphate is to Sharia. Same old thing for 1.500 years. Either take over by sword Mohammad and ISIS style or take over by immigration. Never was any sort of peaceful existence between the Muslim world with any other culture, not even peace between themselves.

2.3 - I meant exactly what I said comparing structures in Lebanon and Iran with the rest. One thing is buying things and brains with oil money, other is creating the blue prints, the technology, have scientific and technological studies and papers, Islam makes any given culture/country go back to the stone ages. Every single time, never fails.

What is the first thing Muslims burn? Libraries, art, destroy monuments. There isn't a single advanced country that got half decent without equal rights for women, protective laws for children, even less countries that give zero value to art and creativity

Islam is the death of thought, imagination, creativity and personal freedom of any kind. What makes you think a system that tells you what to do, to think, say, even what to eat, can generate any sort of advance, discover, tech?

2.4- You seem more interested in my upbringing than facts. If I'm a European nationalist, history remains the same as if I was a Socialist Liberal, Dubai's reality wont change according to my political afilition or religious belief. Islam is Islam if I'm Atheist, Catholic or agnostic.

I don't own you anything, but I feel given today, so i will answer. I'm not a European Nationalist because I'm not European, I do descend from Europeans from most part. I'm not Atheist, Christian or Agnostic, I consider myself a spiritualist. I believe in God, if there's one or 5 I don't really care about that fact, I have peace with the unknown and I'm open to different sorts of realities. I was raised Catholic because that's the main religion in my country, the second religion is Atheism. And yes, I consider Atheist the most religious of them all, they talk more about God not existing than faithfuls talk about their God existing. I like Buddhism too, Kardecism, I believe in energy and Quantum physics to me is a good way to explain what after death might be.
#14861455
1. Ok, listen:

Dubai not using Sharia law all the time =/= liberal

That is unless you have a very, very broad definition of liberalism.

2. So you admit that Dubai does not use Sharia law all the time? I don't get what you're saying here. Are you saying that, because Islam is illogical, Dubai uses Sharia law all the time despite there being direct proof of the opposite (I'm serious you can find it in it's goddamn wikipedia page)? What do you think I am, an idiot? Jesus Christ you do not know anything about Dubai, don't you?

2.1. How is that related to my post outside of trying to bash a bunch of Muslim countries? I didn't even list any countries so I have no idea what you're talking about at all.

2.2. Oh yes, that's why the Middle East is so multi-cultural and multi-religious, because the Caliphate killed everyone who wasn't culturally the same as them /s

Also you just said, right now, in the same post, that Islam is both political and religious combined directly after you said you didn't mean that. Such contradictions. Look, I'm not even going to debate how the political and religious aspects of Islam were often separated and how this can be see throughout Islam's history since A. I have already done this before and B. You won't bother listening to me anyways.

2.3. I repeat what I have said before, Iran and Lebanon, more most of their history, have always had Muslim majority populations. Of course you don't want to admit this because it would take admitting that Muslims can build something and do stuff and therefore admit that Islam isn't the most evil thing in the world.

What a remarkably gross generalization. There is a difference between modern Muslims and Muslim warriors from thousands of years ago. Oh really? Then explain to me why so many rich Middle Eastern countries put so much effort into expanding the amount of domestic artists in their countries? I literally gave Dubai as an example in my previous post! Of course you'll ignore this too for obvious reasons.

Yes, the Abbasid Golden Age didn't exist at all! /s :roll:

Also if Islam is that totalitarian then there shouldn't be that many sects of Islam. How can a totalitarian ideology be simultaneously so decentralized as well? Of course you'll ignore this, because you ignore all forms of rationalism that you don't like.

2.4. That, was a side note. Side notes and eccentric quips are my thing, they're like a part of my personality. The divergence and of putting clinical examination of people is the thing that makes my personality both strange and appealing (at least according to my associates). If you have an issue with this I'll stop but you don't have to bit if you don't want to.

2.5. Honestly you need to solidify your ideology. An strong ideology is one that can be simply spoken or written. What I see written here is a jumbled mess of different influences and thoughts therefore your thoughts are also jumbled as well. Find what you want from yourself and your ideas and then talk to me.
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