What do you think makes neoliberalism different from regular liberalism and regular pro-capitalist politics?
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mikema63 wrote:I read a couple of people who are considered "neoliberal" in by various people including an economist or two whose writing is tolerable and I have never heard them suggest that economics should be considered anything like that or that moral views and impacts on people shouldn't be considered when making policy.
Who in your view has espoused this sort of neoliberalism where social impacts shouldn't be considered?
They hold that organization of society by the market is a natural arrangement, and so the government should intervene so as to subvert all things to the logic of the market. The premise itself is flawed. The policy results are therefore grounded on false logical premise. As a result, they are socially experimental in nature. The number one case for illustration of this is the goings on in Chile after the coup by Pinochet (which was directly supported by neoliberal interests).
mikema63 wrote:I think of Hayek as a libertarian not a neoliberal. Do you consider libertarians part of a broader neoliberalism?
That's an interesting take that I think would be disputed by people who consider themselves neoliberal (I've had the term thrown at me a few times so I've looked into a couple of groups that consider themselves neoliberal).
I think they would claim that they merely think the market is the best way to run an economy but also that market failures exist in lots of places and it is the duty of the government to intervene to fix those failures. Not to force everything into market logic. One big example I can think of is education where they seem to broadly argue that it simply cannot and shouldn't be a free market enterprise but is nevertheless extremely important to society.
I'm not trying to particularly defend neoliberalism here, I want to point out, I just am not sure how much libertarianism and neoliberalism can or should be conflated.
I have absolutely no doubt some self-ascribed neoliberals wouldn't like what I have to say on neoliberalism, nobody likes to hear such things which question their worldview.
mikema63 wrote:Part of the thing that makes me question this is that austrian economics is considered a joke by all those economists. It's considered heterodox beyond one or two insights like utility theory.
I'm pretty certain that simply conflating hayek and Austrian school economists, which generally inform the more extreme wings of libertarianism and ancaps, is going to miss a lot of nuance and casts the net far too broadly. Neoliberal economists tend to think Austrians are idiots.
You aren't questioning their worldview so much as stating what it is, and I think we should take people seriously when they say that they do or don't believe something. I can't think of anyone who considers themselves neoliberal that I've ever read who have espoused the sorts of market fundamentalist toss that the Austrians believe in.
Hong Wu wrote:I imagine neo-liberalism is another name for globalism, which by my impression is a bunch of liberals pretending that the world cares what the UN says about this or that, when the truth is that if you read between the lines even a little bit, no one seems to give a shit unless it happens to align with their preconceived goals.
mikema63 wrote:This is trending towards a bit more vitriolic conversation than I would really prefer.
So let's take it back a bit. I do agree that international institutions like the IMF, the world bank, and the WTO are good examples of neoliberalism internationally. Do you think they have had any positive effects or are they entirely negative? Should they be eliminated or is there some set of reforms you would make to these institutions to make them work?
Do you really consider the base project of the UN to promote peace and a venue for diplomacy to be a total failure or is there some value to that institution? How should it be changed?
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