Why Liberals and Christians tend to be incompatible - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Modern liberalism. Civil rights and liberties, State responsibility to the people (welfare).
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
By DanDaMan
#13374928
Definitely liberalism is not incompatable with christianity, as it usually entails freedom of religion, and obviously not pushing a certain worldview onto others, and so it wouldn't impose anything that would otherwise be incompatable with the christian message onto christianity.
I just pointed out how American Liberalism is not compatible with Christianity.
User avatar
By Invictus_88
#13375155
The incompatibility of liberalism and Christianity is just a bloody myth.

It only stands up when one uses a corrupted view of liberalism and/or Christianity.
User avatar
By Invictus_88
#13375159
DanDaMan wrote:"Err, Jesus did numerous things in the bible that clearly marked him as a liberal, if not a socialist, communist and/or anarchist."

:eek: Jesus was pro abortion, marijuana, premarital sex, fatherless children, men marrying each other!!! :eek:


He was pro forgiveness, against bureaucratic rule (Pharisees, remember?), he was in favour of enlightened bending of rules, and serving the human good in defiance of pretty social taboos.

Classic Liberal.
By Kman
#13375180
ninurta wrote:Libertarianism is a form of liberalism, though in america it's a bit conservative. Sort of.


Liberalism is libertarianism, the only reason this definition has changed is because the social democrats/progressive movement managed to steal the word liberal around 100 years ago.

It really ticks me off when people that believe the state should rob people with massive amounts of taxes call themselves ''liberals'', their ideology is incompatible with liberty because liberty includes economic freedom from the state.

In response to the OP I would say that yes, Modern liberals are indeed anti-christianity because at the core of christianity is a distrust of government power (the roman government killed Jesus after all), modern liberals worship government power, they want it to grow massively so they can complete their wealth redistribution scheme, which is also anti-christianity since such a plan involves breaking one of the ten commandments which is ''thou shall not steal''.
User avatar
By Rei Murasame
#13375220
DanDaMan wrote:I just pointed out how American Liberalism is not compatible with Christianity.

But unfortunately, Christianity spawned Liberalism.
By PBVBROOK
#13375250
Liberalism is libertarianism, the only reason this definition has changed is because the social democrats/progressive movement managed to steal the word liberal around 100 years ago.


Liberalism does NOT exclude governmental solutions and modern libertarianism does. In an American context the two are as different as night and day.

It really ticks me off when people that believe the state should rob people with massive amounts of taxes call themselves ''liberals'', their ideology is incompatible with liberty because liberty includes economic freedom from the state.


Why? This makes no sense. There is no such thing as "economic freedom from the state." Never has been and never will be. The state defines its economics. Even if it chooses to tax very little it still taxes. And when it chooses to control less it still controls some. Liberals are no different than conservatives when it comes to taxation except in defining what taxes should be used for.

In response to the OP I would say that yes, Modern liberals are indeed anti-christianity because at the core of christianity is a distrust of government power (the roman government killed Jesus after all), modern liberals worship government power,


That is absolute nonsense. The core of Christianity is trust in God. Christ orders us to subject ourselves to the government.

Your statement is even more nonsensical in your assertion that "liberals worship government." Garbage. Who leads the charge on limiting government power over the individual? It is the conservatives who give us the police state, military adventurism, the partriot act and laws dictating private behavior. I hear this statement all of the time and am struck everytime by how stupid it is. As for your assertion that taxation violates the 10 commandment admonition against stealing that is just plain silly. Empty rhetoric. So you are saying that God broke the 10 commandments when he established the tithe (with the force of law lest you try to wiggle out with that. The temple tax was NOT optional.) You further conclude that Jesus broke the 10 commandments when he told us to pay taxes, and paid his own? This is getting laughable.

You really need to start thinking before you make outlandish claims like this. Jesus was ALL ABOUT the redistribution of wealth. He endless asked his followers to give away thier wealth to the poor. He took the money his group had and gave to the poor. He took food from his followers, multiplied it and gave it to the poor. He said, "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven."

I find this idiotic argument that Jesus was some kind of free market conservative ignorant and sacreligious. It is a direct insult to what Jesus stood for.

You and DanDaMan will get to plead your case before your creator some day. He will, I am sure, be far more compassionate than you are. You had better hope so anway.
By DanDaMan
#13375293
You and DanDaMan will get to plead your case before your creator some day.
This from the guy that's pro crush the skulls of the unborn and suck their brains out to wash down the sink and also promotes the antitheses of the teachings of Jesus by taking (stealing) from others in the name of Social Justice.

I have many faults but I am not a Marxist before a Christian as you are.
As for your assertion that taxation violates the 10 commandment admonition against stealing that is just plain silly. Empty rhetoric. So you are saying that God broke the 10 commandments when he established the tithe (with the force of law lest you try to wiggle out with that. The temple tax was NOT optional.) You further conclude that Jesus broke the 10 commandments when he told us to pay taxes, and paid his own? This is getting laughable.
Show us where Jesus demanded a progressive tithe?
By PBVBROOK
#13375355
This from the guy that's pro crush the skulls of the unborn and suck their brains out to wash down the sink and also promotes the antitheses of the teachings of Jesus by taking (stealing) from others in the name of Social Justice


Of course none of this is true. When you are caught making absurd statements you must rely on lies to get you through. And, of course I am not a marxist either. That is just another of your childish taunts. You actually don't really know what a Marxist is so your statement is meaningless. Par for the course for you.

You did ask one particularly idiotic question and I am happy to answer it skippy.

You asked,
"Show us where Jesus demanded a progressive tithe?


Well. Of course your question proves you do not know what a tithe is. I do not find that surprising at all. (Quick. Google Tithe so you can sound smart in your reply.)

But since you seem to be terrified of Marxists and their attacks on the wealthy, let me tell you what Jesus said on the subject:

Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."


...I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.


"When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and you be repaid.
13 But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind,
14 and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just."


Shall we cast around the Bible a bit more sport?

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

-Matthew 6:24


"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'"

-Matthew 25:41-45


"He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished."

-Proverbs 17:5



"He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich--both come to poverty."

-Proverbs 22:16


"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy."
-Ezekiel 16:49


"The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern."

-Proverbs 29:7


"There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land."

-Deuteronomy 15:11


Deuteronomy 14:28-29
At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.
Hey DDM! Did you finally figure out that tithing is progressive? You did? I thought not. You still have to figure out what a tithe is.


Proverbs 31:8-9
Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.


That's enough. My position is this. I will use any means necessary, including taxes, to insure that Jesus commandments to care for the poor, the afflicted, the homeless and the sick are followed.

If you want to snivel because you have to pay a few extra bucks in taxes so that a poor child can eat. Go ahead. I will laugh at you and raise your taxes more.

The ugly truth is that private charities in the US, and we are the most generous nation in the world, still leave children hungry, sick people without medical care and the homeless living in parks. So it falls to THEIR government to help care for them. The government and its tax money is as much theirs as it is yours.

So you just wail and gnash your teeth and call people who would help the sick and poor theives. The more you do the more people come over to my side. And we are about to tax your ass off. Get used to it. :lol:
By DanDaMan
#13375596
If you want to snivel because you have to pay a few extra bucks in taxes so that a poor child can eat. Go ahead. I will laugh at you and raise your taxes more.
Clearly you do not follow the teachings of Jesus. You do the devils work and TAKE.

I am all for helping and charity.
I'm just not going to suggest we do it by taking (stealing) from others as you do.
By PBVBROOK
#13375677
^^

If I worked for weeks I could not do a better job of promoting the liberal agenda than trolls like you do.

BTW. Did you google tithe yet? I thought not. You don't actually debate or support your position. You just throw bullshit grenades.

But thanks for representing the republican and libertarian view. I will use your example when I address any of the conservatives and libertarians on this forum. They are silent in the face of your nonsense so I have to assume they agree.

Down they go a few more pegs in my opinion.
By DanDaMan
#13375720
But thanks for representing the republican and libertarian view. I will use your example when I address any of the conservatives and libertarians on this forum. They are silent in the face of your nonsense so I have to assume they agree.
I think everyone agrees that taking (stealing) in the name of Social Justice is wrong. You are the only one here that seems to think Jesus condones it.
User avatar
By Rei Murasame
#13375729
DanDaMan wrote:I think everyone agrees that taking (stealing) in the name of Social Justice is wrong.

Well you'd be wrong about that.

DanDaMan wrote:You are the only one here that seems to think Jesus condones it.

I think all the onlookers can now see that Christianity in theory should be capable of at least endorsing "Social Justice" (or whatever you want to call it). PBVBROOK seems to have made a great case with the sections he's quoted (and you seem to have responded to none of them), and you know that's a particularly interesting statement coming from me, since I'm not even a fan of Christianity in the first place.
User avatar
By ThereBeDragons
#13375738
DanDaMan wrote:You are the only one here that seems to think Jesus condones it.

All Christians from 0 AD to the Reformation believed that Jesus condoned taxes. It died down a bit after that, but Catholics continued to believe in it for a while afterwards and Martin Luther himself ordered revolting German peasants to "pay unto Caesar what is Caesar's" even though he rejected the tithe.
Last edited by ThereBeDragons on 22 Apr 2010 18:29, edited 1 time in total.
By DanDaMan
#13375740
I think all the onlookers can now see that Christianity in theory should be capable of at least endorsing "Social Justice" (or whatever you want to call it). PBVBROOK seems to have made a great case with the sections he's quoted (and you seem to have responded to none of them), and you know that's a particularly interesting statement coming from me, since I'm not even a fan of Christianity in the first place.
Social Justice is a religious concept. The difference is that religion teaches it be done by the individual and altruistically.
PBV can post all he wants. In his heart he know Jesus never taught anyone to take (steal) from others.
I seriously doubt St Peter will look kindly on him embracing a system that TAKES from all when taking is the M.O. of Satan.
All Christians from 0 AD to the Reformation believed that mandatory tithing was indeed religiously condoned.
The Church has long since dropped incarceration for failure to tithe. The state will not.
User avatar
By Rei Murasame
#13375778
DanDaMan wrote:The difference is that religion teaches it be done by the individual and altruistically.

Even the Jews disagree on that, apparently.

In contemporary parlance, “tikkun olam” (repairing the world) has come to connote social action and social justice work. In this article, the author surveys the use of this concept in the work of a number of Jewish writers and organizations in the past several decades, and explores some implications of the term’s wide-ranging use and development from its place in Lurianic Kabbalah. (He does not connect it with the use in classical rabbinic texts of the term “tikkun ha-olam,” referring to social legislation not strictly required but enacted because it was good public policy.) The following is reprinted with the author's permission from "Tikkun: A Lurianic Motif in Contemporary Jewish Thought," in From Ancient Israel to Modern Judaism: Intellect in Quest of Understanding--Essays in Honor of Marvin Fox, Vol. 4, ed. Jacob Neusner et al. (Scholars Press).


Fortunately for Britain (and now recently Japan, as the Jews have opened dialogue with them too), these particular Jews seem to have been able to purge the middle-eastern taint out of their mental processes, and they are extremely reasonable and well-respected among european and asian mystics and even just normal curious people.

If they continue to act reasonably then I'm sure things can go well.
By DanDaMan
#13375784
Rei, you can even find Christians supporting the taking form others in the name of Social Justice.
But is it morally correct to base society on the immorality of taking from others, for redistribution, what they don't want to give? No.
User avatar
By Rei Murasame
#13375828
DanDaMan wrote:But is it morally correct to base society on the immorality of taking from others, for redistribution, what they don't want to give? No.

Why not?
By PBVBROOK
#13376095
PBV can post all he wants. In his heart he know Jesus never taught anyone to take (steal) from others.
I seriously doubt St Peter will look kindly on him embracing a system that TAKES from all when taking is the M.O. of Satan.


Actually I know "in my heart" as you put it, that Jesus teachings command us to work for a state which insures no one is hungry, no one is sick and without care and no one is homeless and without shelter. So you are absolutely wrong. In fact your position is laughable. You actually said that you thought that 'satan' would be happy with taking from the rich and giving to the poor. :lol: More proof you are just trolling. To allow any other explination would be a violation of the rule that we ought not insult our fellow posters.

Of course it is fun to demolish your ideas so I will gleefully take the opportunity to show how you are wrong when you tell us that taxation violates the 10 commandment admonition against stealing. This is, of course a religious argument so we should rely on Judeo Christian sources to see if you are right. And guess what! You are wrong.

Suppose you really had studied the old testiment in which the 10 commandments are found. Did you know that you would have found that the people of Israel paid a 10% temple tax or tithe? But wait. There is more!

Read this:
Leviticus 19:

9. And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

10. And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the Lord your God.


Now check this out. The 10 commandments are Deuteronomy 20: 1-17. Guess what a mere four verses later God said:

Deuteronomy 24:

19. When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

20. When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

21. When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

22. And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt: therefore I command thee to do this thing.


Now he didn't say "if you want to" as you so ignorantly believe. He said "I command you to do this thing." So there is God's word my poor uninformed friend. Not a thing ambiguous about this at all. It is not I who should be afraid of the meeting.

Oh but you just know there is more. Right? In ancient Israel the people were paying some serious taxes to the kings. And they, like you, bitched about it. But they did it anyway. They paid census taxes, land taxes, tribute and more. Here from Orr:

Indirect Taxes: These indirect taxes were of various types, such as custom duties or sales taxes. An excise tax on articles consumed was called “belo” in Hebrew, and a road toll or customs tax was termed “halakh.” In Ezra 4:20, these indirect taxes are termed “tribute” and “duty” respectively in the modern English version. Other words used in various places in the Old Testament were “mas” (forced labor) [I Kings 5:13; v. 27, Hebrew text], “massa” (burden) [II Chronicles 17:11], “mekhes” (measure) [Numbers 31:25-31], and “middah” (tribute) [Ezra 4:20].


They were called to service in time of war (drafted) and imposed upon for special taxes to support special projects of the King and the Temple. And ON TOP OF THIS they were expected to make freewill offerings to the poor. Get it? Their freewill offerings were in additon to the various forms of taxes. So what were they compelled to pay? Most experts agree that the total tax was between 25% and 40%. BEFORE the compulsary temple tax or tithe. About what we pay today.

This is the world into which Jesus was born and in which he paid HIS taxes and insisted his disciples paid theirs. He even performed a miracle to raise money for taxes.

So you are completely wrong. You will not try to refute any of these things for two reasons. One is that you lack the ability and the other is, as a troll, you are not debating. You are merely trying to annoy people.

A final piece of ignorance that you posted I must point out. You said,
"The Church has long since dropped incarceration for failure to tithe. The state will not."


This is, of course, a silly statement as we stripped the churches of any secular power generations ago. The Church did not "drop" it. The liberals who wrote the constitution took the power away from them. And they indeed had the power to tax in the colonies. But you know what is really fun? You know how much you love your mentor Glen Beck? Well don't tell anyone but in Glen Beck's church you can't go to temple unless you give the church 10% of your before tax income. I wonder why old Glenn doesn't talk about that. Do you think he thinks his church is stealing? :lol:

Now Dandaman. Now that I have proved using your own sources that the Bible and God himself tell us that taxes for the poor are NOT stealing.....please post the Bible verse that says they are. You can forget about the 10 commandments. I just proved that source won't work.

Please give us an ordered argument for your assertion citing chapter and verse.

You don't want us all to think you are deluded in your religious beliefs or just ignorant to what the sources really say. Do you?
By DanDaMan
#13376441
Actually I know "in my heart" as you put it, that Jesus teachings command us to work for a state which insures no one is hungry, no one is sick and without care and no one is homeless and without shelter.
Yes, YOU work and do personal good. That does not mean you TAKE from others or sanction others doing it. Once you start TAKING in the name of Jesus you pervert all he stood for.
You also put the STATE before God. We know this because you talk of no personal altruism but only of what the state must do for the poor.
You tell us you want to GIVE to the poor and I have no argument with you.

This is what the hierarchical order is supposed to be for Christians...
God>you>charity.
What PBV wants is...
State>you>charity.

You're not supposed to put the state before God, PBV.
Doing so shows you have abandoned his teachings.
Russia-Ukraine War 2022

Wait, what ? South Korea defeated communists ? Wh[…]

@SpecialOlympian Stupid is as stupid does. If[…]

It is rather trivial to transmit culture. I can j[…]

World War II Day by Day

So long as we have a civilization worth fighting […]