[DanDaMan]

I'll just stay here in civilization where we use government to look after the general welfare of its citizens.

Do they not raise you to be a self sufficient independent MAN in your neck of the woods?

In my area we were brought up to be rugged enough to not need a nanny all our lives.

In order for a liberal to ask the country to ‘progress’ we must be able to convince the majority of the people that our cause is just, our plan effective and our goals attainable.

No. You have to convince the right that "statism" and it's Leftist principals will make the country better than what has proven to make countries better and not worse. (As in free market capitalism and Liberty.)

[PBVBROOK]

No. You have to convince the right that "statism" and it's Leftist principals will make the country better than what has proven to make countries better and not worse. (As in free market capitalism and Liberty.)

Yea. That will be really hard huh.

The dollar in in freefall.

We have over 10% unemployment and just over 25% underemployment.

The Deficit is 1.4 Trilliion dollars and inflation is about to really tank the dollar. In a couple of years a cheap Chinese clock will cost as much as a Rolex.

Oil demand is expected to rise next year and gas prices are going through the roof.

National healthcare (such as it is) is about to raise middle class taxes by a good 10% or more.

Commercial real estate is about to take a tumble further stressing the economy.

We are on the brink of war with Iran and either way we play it we loose.

We have a war in Afghanistan that we can't afford to pay for now.

Everything the average citizen owns is mortgaged to the hilt.

American companies are exporting good American jobs at an alarming rate.

The only things we manufacture anymore are guns and rap music.

Congress's approval rating is at 20%.

Wall street fucked the American people and then forced them to pay for it.

And you think it would be hard to convice the American people that we need to fundamentally change the way we run the railroad?

Wait a year. There will be libertarians swearing they never really believed that unregulated business was the way to go.

Free market capitalism is on the ropes big time. The American people are about to get really pissed. The ones with no health insurance will be pissed that the IRS is forcing them to pay and the ones with health insurance are going to be real tired of the lines they have to wait in to see a doctor. Wait untill one of those folks with the "Cadillac" plans get their rate increase due to the tax the government is puting on insurance companies. They are going to be seriously pissed.

The Republicans are in the cat-bird seat for 2010. They will force tax cuts that will really be a weener in the warp drive.

Free market capitalism is not the answer. Carefull control of the economy is our only hope. Take some of the big bucks from the wealthy, insist on a level playing field for our international trade and spend stimulous money putting people back to work and not funding losses suffered in Iceland. That is what we need. And we may just get it eventually.

[Huntster]

I've got a few ideas for our country. The banks won't like it, though.

Then the investors who have their money in the banks (apparently not you) probably won't like it, either.

You might have to resort to armed robbery rather than political robbery.

[DanDaMan]

Free market capitalism is not the answer.

Then how do you explain the Chinese economy for the last 30 years and how much better they live?

Also... can you show me where something other than capitalism has done more to raise the standard of living?

[youtube]RWsx1X8PV_A[/youtube]

[PBVBROOK]

Then how do you explain the Chinese economy for the last 30 years and how much better they live?

Do you understand the Chinese economy? Appearantly not. The Chinese economy is over 1/3 state owned. It is very tightly controlled by the communist party. Over 10% of Chinese still live on less than $1.00 per day. Chinese monitary policy makes a joke of any notion that they have a truly market based economy.

I am glad we agree on this though. I also believe the US government could take a lesson from the Chinese. China is moving toward a single payer national health care. They are carefully controlling imports. They refuse to participate in global warming treaties in any meaningful manner. They carefully control wages and prices. They have state ownership of essential industries. And, of course, all of this from a government far to the left of our own.

I certainly would not want the US to embrace communism. Far from it. But China is doing a magnificent job of careful government control of their economy. We could learn from this.

I am surprised you forward the Chinese economy as an example. I thought you were for free markets and conservative government. China is neither of these. Perhaps I am mistaken about you. Who would have thought you were a communist at heart.

[Stormsmith]

National healthcare (such as it is) is about to raise middle class taxes by a good 10% or more.

What happened to that pledge to not impose taxation for health care on anyone but the top 2% of income earners?

DDM

No one will argue against the notion that capitalism hasn't been lucrative. But unregulated capitalism only helps some, and generally, at the expense of many. The rise in the standard of living the west enjoyed in the 20C came from capitalism, regulations and trade unions. After The Thatcher/Bush years of deregulation, no end of problems arose, and the Gini indicates that the right was v busy re-distributing wealth for the last 8 years, with all the gain being to the top income earners at the expense of the bottom. Unless you're a Walmartian, I can't see why the right has a dogged determination for the extant status quo.

[DanDaMan]

Do you understand the Chinese economy? Appearantly not. The Chinese economy is over 1/3 state owned. It is very tightly controlled by the communist party. Over 10% of Chinese still live on less than $1.00 per day. Chinese monitary policy makes a joke of any notion that they have a truly market based economy.

Not only has capitalism been lucrative... but it has increased the standard of living for millions upon millions of Chinese.

Clearly, capitalism helps more than it hurts.

Also... why have I not seen someone tell me what has done better to raise the standard of living than capitalism has?

Capitalism is not perfect.
It's just that nothing else is better than it.

Unless of course one is petty and envies the rich.
(Would I like Bill Gate's money? Sure. Does he owe me or not deserve what he worked for... NO.)

[Zerogouki]

Local, state, national...ALL governments "dictate" how people live.

If it's "wrong" for government at a national level to pursue liberal/socialist policies even when they explicitly campaigned for such policies and were freely and fairly elected on such a platform, how would it be "less wrong" at a state or even local level?
If I'm a capitalist libertarian how is it any better for me for local govt. to "steal my property" rather than national government?

- You have a bigger voice in local governments than you do in national government
- Moving to a different town is much easier than moving to a different country

[Stormsmith]

Clearly, capitalism helps more than it hurts.

Like most people, most of my 'wealth' came from hard work and investment, so nothing would make me happier than to say, you're 100% right. You're not. When large corporations are allowed unfettered and unchecked practises, sometimes some fairly dire things result. One of the better known cases is the Pacific Gas and Electric suit and later the Whitman Corp suit for hexavalent chromium contmination (Erin Brockovich). Environmental damages that affect human health probably - inevitably affects wildlife, and that exacerbates the problem. Enron and Bre-X. The Bank Fiasco. Haliburton, with its wacky accounting, and off shore banking, the tobacco industry and that whole gummy bears thingee, the auto industry with its planned obseletion and its notion that it was cheaper to settle lawsuits for deaths than to recall shoddily made cars.

Now add to that, the stunning change in the Gini, and I think you might agree:

Capitalism is great, but it needs regulation.

[DanDaMan]

Like most people, most of my 'wealth' came from hard work and investment, so nothing would make me happier than to say, you're 100% right. You're not. When large corporations are allowed unfettered and unchecked practises, sometimes some fairly dire things result. One of the better known cases is the Pacific Gas and Electric suit and later the Whitman Corp suit for hexavalent chromium contmination (Erin Brockovich). Environmental damages that affect human health probably - inevitably affects wildlife, and that exacerbates the problem. Enron and Bre-X. The Bank Fiasco. Haliburton, with its wacky accounting, and off shore banking, the tobacco industry and that whole gummy bears thingee, the auto industry with its planned obseletion and its notion that it was cheaper to settle lawsuits for deaths than to recall shoddily made cars.

Now add to that, the stunning change in the Gini, and I think you might agree:

Capitalism is great, but it needs regulation.

I agree.
I just don't favor a statist system where the regulator is also he manufacturer.
That's where the Liberal Left is shortsighted. They think politicians are angels and somehow will regulate themselves better than when they only had to regulate others like they are paid to do.

[Stormsmith]

They think politicians are angels

You're putting me on, right? after 8 years of one fat head after another publicly disgracing himself, and that's both sides of the isle.

[PBVBROOK]

That's where the Liberal Left is shortsighted. They think politicians are angels and somehow will regulate themselves better than when they only had to regulate others like they are paid to do.

No. The left realizes that we have some control over our elected officials and that without them we have no control over corporations at all.

[DanDaMan]

No. The left realizes that we have some control over our elected officials and that without them we have no control over corporations at all.

That's what LAWS are for.
Or is it you get jealous of the money they make?

[Stormsmith]

Or is it you get jealous of the money they make?

Do you come on these boards to have a conversation, or just to take a piss? You've just acknowledged there is a benefit to oversight, now lets see how to implement it.

Thoughts?

[DanDaMan]

You've just acknowledged there is a benefit to oversight, now lets see how to implement it.

Externally.
Not internally when the government ends up overseeing its self.

Liberals here hate big business with a passion but somehow think a government monopoly is the answer. It's an upside down logic to think that way.

[Stormsmith]

This is what I mean about taking a piss:

Liberals here hate big business with a passion but somehow think a government monopoly is the answer. It's an upside down logic to think that way.

There are a lot of liberals or left leaning people here who know the value of business, because we own one and invest in the market.

Why do you spoil vertually every post you write with these silly, silly broad generalizations. How old are you?

[PBVBROOK]

I said: No. The left realizes that we have some control over our elected officials and that without them we have no control over corporations at all.


DDM said:

That's what LAWS are for

.

DDM. Just a quick question for you. WHERE IN THE FUCK DO YOU THINK LAWS COME FROM?

Here is a hint - That would be our elected officials now wouldn't it?

Do you think before you post?

Or is it you get jealous of the money they make?

You have no idea about my financial situation. Maybe I am one of the wealthy. Did you consider that? Lots of liberals are well to do. Bill Gates comes to mind. He has a little money I think. So does George Sorros, Kerry, Gore, Oprah, and for all I know that annoying ditsy chick on the Progressive Insurance commercials. Or are you under the mistaken impression that people to the left of you are poor and looking for a hand-out? Hell. If Warren Buffet, (opposed Bush tax cuts, favors unilateral disarmement, contributes heavily to the democratic party, supported Hillary Clinton for President) needed to hear from a conservative he knows where to buy one.

[Figlio di Moros]

PVB, don't get caught up in this petty bullshit; you're right, leftists can and do have money, but strangely enough, those are often "champagne socialists". Too many among the rich left have a better bark than their bite.

DDM, Singapore has 2/3rds of the economy owned by the state, and the constantly outscore the US for free markets per the CATO institute. Market systems work, whether state owned or "free".

[DanDaMan]

DDM, Singapore has 2/3rds of the economy owned by the state, and the constantly outscore the US for free markets per the CATO institute. Market systems work, whether state owned or "free".

Explain to me how one can be economically free to open your own business when 2/3 are owned by the government?
I think you do not understand that statism is not freedom and or Liberty.
What you describe with 2/3 control is fascism.

[Zerogouki]

Why would he explain it? CATO made that assessment, not him.