[canadiancapitalist]

Since socialists are intimately connected with labour, unions and labour laws I feel this is an appropriate place to ask this question. Who do you think you're helping with labour laws? How do you feel that these laws make people's lives better? Labour laws can only prohibit certain types of labour. Minimum wage laws prohibit labour for under the minimum wage. It certainly has no power to raise the value of a certain type of labour. Who do you think benefits from this? Or laws that prohibit people from working in unsafe conditions. Why do you think people choose to work in unsafe conditions? Because the alternative is worse! Making laws prohibiting these unsafe conditions will simply shut down enterprises, taking away the jobs that these people want to work and the wealth these companies were creating.

If socialists really cared about labour and workers, they would care enough to abandon their nonsensical superstitions about economics long enough to consider the consequences of their actions in this regard. Labour laws hurt workers and help only a few select special interests. If you truly want to help workers there is only one way to raise wage rates - and that is through increasing worker productivity. The direct correlation between the two is well known by Austrians. Consult the following graph . In a market economy the only way to raise wages for workers is through productivity increases.

Minimum wage laws are particularly heinous. Think about it. You are outlawing labour for people who need it most. People who have nothing. It is almost as if these laws are specifically targeting the poor. People who socialists claim to care about. If socialists cared about the poor they would care more about the consequences of their actions than their devotion to socialist policy.

[Eauz]

As far as I'm aware, such labour laws were developed within the goals and philosophy of Liberalism, not socialism. Unless someone can point it out, I haven't read a socialist that supports the existence of a minimum wage. Maybe this should be moved to the Liberalism sub-forum?

[HoniSoit]

Which is why it's necessary to collectivise the economy and achieve full employment to prevent capitalists making this kind of argument against minimum wage.

[canadiancapitalist]

Unless someone can point it out, I haven't read a socialist that supports the existence of a minimum wage.

Fine, move it to liberalism but I think you are either lying or completely misinformed. Every socialist I have ever talked to supports minimum wages. They're all soft in the head.

[FallenRaptor]

Every socialist I have ever talked to supports minimum wages.

Are these actual socialists or just big guv'ment liberals? Libertarians rarely distinguish between the two.

Socialists may demand reforms like raising the minimum wage as a political tactic to get support from the workers and rally them against the current capitalist order, but raising the minimum wage is not the main goal of genuine socialists.

[canadiancapitalist]

Are these actual socialists or just big guv'ment liberals?

I don't make them take a political compass test or anything. I just go with what people self identify as.

Do you support the minimum wage FallenRaptor? Or raising it, perhaps?

[FallenRaptor]

I favor abolishing capitalism and ultimately the system of wage-labor itself. However, if I were leader of some socialist party(sadly I'm not a member of any at the moment), I would probably set a program of ridiculous demands for the capitalist system like raising the minimum wage while guaranteeing full employment to put as much pressure on the capitalists as possible and help the workers realize that this system cannot fulfill their demands.

[canadiancapitalist]

So you support the minimum wage because you want things to get worse (in order to intensify class struggle)? That is a refreshing degree of honesty so I am going to assume I am reading you incorrectly.

[FallenRaptor]

No, I want to intensify class struggle by supporting the workers. If I wanted to intensify class struggle by making things worse, I would just urge people to vote republican.

[canadiancapitalist]

I agree that voting Republican (or Democrat) will make things worse. I wonder why I ask you a simple question about the minimum wage and you can only respond with obscuration. Is your thinking really this murky or are you being intentionally deceptive and / or intellectually dishonest?

[FallenRaptor]

I do not support minimum wage as a final goal, as I want to eliminate capitalism all together instead of just creating a pinker version of it. However, I do support demanding such things(to an certain extreme) as a political tactic against the capitalists. Does that make more sense?

[canadiancapitalist]

Actually you've been clear throughout, I was just being bitchy. My apologies. So, just to be clear, you do believe that the minimum wage helps workers and raises their wage rates, correct?

[FallenRaptor]

I don't entirely disagree with your original post. Minimum wage can help some workers, but it also hurts others. I would demand that a rise in minimum wage would also be accompanied with a guarantee for full employment. Although this would probably seem reasonable for the average person, it would be an economic absurdity under capitalism.

[Dr House]

if I were leader of some socialist party(sadly I'm not a member of any at the moment), I would probably set a program of ridiculous demands for the capitalist system like raising the minimum wage while guaranteeing full employment to put as much pressure on the capitalists as possible and help the workers realize that this system cannot fulfill their demands.

I want to intensify class struggle by supporting the workers.

You just contradicted yourself. If your intention was to help the workers rather than bring down the system you'd adopt measures that, yunno, actually help the workers. For a high minimum wage and full employment to both be sustained (which is perfectly achievable) the quantity of sunk capital per head in the economy must be raised. The same is true under socialism, because you cannot have high wages without high productivity.

[canadiancapitalist]

Ironically I imagine it to be labour laws that are one of the main factors preventing full employment in our modern pseduo-capitalist economies. I believe full employment would be achieved in an economic system of laissez-faire.

[Dr House]

Ironically I imagine it to be labour laws that are one of the main factors preventing full employment in our modern pseduo-capitalist economies.

Doubt it. The effect of labor laws is minor, and it can be easily overcome by sinking more capital into the economy. In the 60s the minimum wage was the modern-day equivalent of $9.50 an hour and unemployment was less than 4%.

[FallenRaptor]

You just contradicted yourself.

I should have made myself clearer in that post: I want to intensify class struggle by supporting the workers against the capitalists.

If your intention was to help the workers rather than bring down the system you'd adopt measures that, yunno, actually help the workers.

I think overthrowing the system that oppresses them and replacing it with one that empowers them qualifies as helping.

For a high minimum wage and full employment to both be sustained (which is perfectly achievable) the quantity of sunk capital per head in the economy must be raised. The same is true under socialism, because you cannot have high wages without high productivity.

1) Since profits are not of primary importance anymore, workers can get higher wages than under capitalism.
2) I expect a socialist economy to be able to have relatively high productivity.

I think we've had a similar discussion not too long ago on the communist forum.

[filerba]

You're right, we should allow freedom in the labor market. We should start by repealing Taft-Hartley.

But you're wrong in saying that increasing productivity is the only way to increase wages. Profit's distributive share has been increasing. Decrease the rate of profit and wages will rise.

[Eauz]

I think you are either lying or completely misinformed. Every socialist I have ever talked to supports minimum wages. They're all soft in the head.

Then, we have a definition situation that needs to be solves with regard to socialist. However, I've never read any literature where socialists supported the existence of a minimum wage within society. It's counterproductive to the development of socialism and only encourages the continued existence of class relations.

Link

[Vera Politica]

The same is true under socialism, because you cannot have high wages without high productivity.

Hmm, curious. Many socialists want to abandon wages all together

Fine, move it to liberalism but I think you are either lying or completely misinformed. Every socialist I have ever talked to supports minimum wages. They're all soft in the head.

Who the hell are you talking to? Social Liberals are not effin socialists. I'm a Marxist and, like other Marxists in this thread, do not support the minimum wage.