[One Degree]

"Pants-of-dog"]Markham is a suburb of Toronto where more than 50% of the population is non-white.

Sounds like they are segregated from the rest of Toronto. Why would that be?

More interesting is your implied claim that all European cultures are pretty much the same.

In the US, they are viewed the same as there being no bias based upon which country they came from.
The continental differences do not exist here.

[Pants-of-dog]

Sounds like they are segregated from the rest of Toronto. ;) Why would that be?

No. Do you just make stuff up?

In the US, they are viewed the same as there being no bias based upon which country they came from.
The continental differences do not exist here.

The weird biases of people from the US do not affect my claim.

Nothing you have posted contradicts the claim that Toronto is one of the most multicultural and safest cities in the developed world, and that this disproves the claim that multiculturalism never works.

[One Degree]

"Pants-of-dog"]No. Do you just make stuff up?

Yes, yes I do.

The weird biases of people from the US do not affect my claim.

You believe it is weird for us not to be biased based upon European country of origin?

Nothing you have posted contradicts the claim that Toronto is one of the most multicultural and safest cities in the developed world, and that this disproves the claim that multiculturalism never works.

I was just pointing out your idea of multiculturalism should be pretty easy to accomplish anywhere. In the US, we have a political party and a news media whose survival is based upon making sure the two largest ethnic groups feel like they are being discriminated against. That is a lot bigger hurdle than what you are talking about.

[Truth To Power]

Markham is a suburb of Toronto where more than 50% of the population is non-white.

Sounds like they are segregated from the rest of Toronto. Why would that be?

Markham is not segregated from the rest of Toronto. Such a notion is absurd.

[One Degree]

Markham is not segregated from the rest of Toronto. Such a notion is absurd.

What is absurd about it? The demographics I posted of Toronto make a point of pointing out the various ethnic communities. This is very common in large cities. You were triggered by the word 'segregated', but people actually self segregate and I never said it was a bad thing. The only thing absurd about it was you were embarrassed by the possibility because you see it as a bad thing despite all the reality around you.

[Truth To Power]

Really? Back to this again? Do I really need to repost the demographics of Toronto to show your idea of minorities are other Europeans?

If Toronto doesn't convince you (and if it doesn't, you should go there), Vancouver will. It is even more culturally and racially diverse than Toronto, and although it is not quite as safe (there are drug and poverty problems, because the climate is better than in the rest of Canada, and marginalized people tend to go where conditions on the street are most comfortable, or at least survivable), it is still safer than any comparable American city.

[Truth To Power]

What is absurd about it?

It is completely divorced from reality.

The demographics I posted of Toronto make a point of pointing out the various ethnic communities.

No, it's just census information.

This is very common in large cities.

To have a census that identifies people's ethnic origins? Sure.

You were triggered by the word 'segregated',

Your claims continue to be absurd. I was not "triggered." There is a difference between dispassionately identifying an error and being "triggered."

but people actually self segregate and I never said it was a bad thing.

Markham is not segregated form Toronto. You can't even really tell the difference when you cross the boundary into Markham.

The only thing absurd about it was you were embarrassed by the possibility because you see it as a bad thing despite all the reality around you.

I wasn't embarrassed any more than I was triggered. That's just you makin' $#!+ up.

[One Degree]

@Truth To Power
I am really confused by your posts. You seem to really want to avoid the idea that people live in community enclaves based upon ethnicity. This is not contrary to being multicultural. It could be used to show a lack of integration, which of course is the question in the OP. Personally, I have no objections to either community enclaves or fully integrated communities. Different strokes for different folks. I am just curious as to your reticence. Apologies if I was offensive.

Edit: Here is a link to a demographic map of Toronto with an article questioning Toronto's claim to multiculturalism. http://torontoist.com/2013/10/this-map- ... questions/

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes, yes I do.

You believe it is weird for us not to be biased based upon European country of origin?

So nothing intelligent to say. Moving on...

I was just pointing out your idea of multiculturalism should be pretty easy to accomplish anywhere. In the US, we have a political party and a news media whose survival is based upon making sure the two largest ethnic groups feel like they are being discriminated against. That is a lot bigger hurdle than what you are talking about.

This has nothing to do with what I said.

At this point, it seems like you are responding to me just to interject your opinion. Please do so without quoting my posts, as ut is clear that you are bot addressing my claims.

[Know It All]

"Pants-of-dog"]Markham is a suburb of Toronto where more than 50% of the population is non-white.

Sounds like they are segregated from the rest of Toronto. Why would that be?


In the US, they are viewed the same as there being no bias based upon which country they came from.
The continental differences do not exist here.

This is all quite upsetting. I have never been to Canada, but I always pictured it as being a haven for white people, although I was aware their is a large French community (shame really).

Now, as I said, I haven't been to Canada, Toronto, or indeed Markham, so if you are correct in what you are saying, Canada must be totally 100% different to the UK. Our nice areas tend to be almost solely white, mainly because white people are more likely to be law abiding and hard working. Poorer areas are where you are more likely to find the ethnic minorities, mainly because they feel more at home in poverty, and prefer a culture based on crime. If you take a City like London for example, there are areas heavily occupied by Afro Caribbeans, Pakistanis, Koreans, and even Chinese. They do everything they can do to form their own communities, and do everything they can do not to mix with the indigenous population. Of course, this isn't totally possible for many reasons, none the less they do their best. This is multiculturalism and has nothing to do with integration.

Sorry if the truth upsets the more politically correct amongst you, but to be honest I don't really care.

STOP PRESS STOP PRESS. Have a read of this, and then tell me how well everyone is getting on, and how well multiculturalism works in Markham.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/10/17/ma ... l-concerns

[One Degree]

@Know It All
Canadians like to pretend they are better than everyone else, so they refuse to recognize they are just the same. They wanted to be Americans for quite awhile and now they are trying to develop their own identity. They are overwhelmingly a white country pretending to be some ethnic haven.

2001
North American (non-aboriginal) 40.21%
British Isles 33.64%
French 15.89%
Western European 12.78%
Eastern European 8.50%
Southern European 7.87%
2001
East and Southeast Asian 6.03%
Aboriginal 4.45%
South Asian 3.25%
Northern European 3.22%
Caribbean 1.70%
Other European 1.28%
2001
Arab 1.17%
African 0.99%
Latin, Central and
South American 0.82%
West Asian 0.69%
Oceania 0.16%

[Pants-of-dog]

This is all quite upsetting. I have never been to Canada, but I always pictured it as being a haven for white people, although I was aware their is a large French community (shame really).

It is not a haven for white people.

Now, as I said, I haven't been to Canada, Toronto, or indeed Markham, so if you are correct in what you are saying, Canada must be totally 100% different to the UK. Our nice areas tend to be almost solely white, mainly because white people are more likely to be law abiding and hard working. Poorer areas are where you are more likely to find the ethnic minorities, mainly because they feel more at home in poverty, and prefer a culture based on crime. If you take a City like London for example, there are areas heavily occupied by Afro Caribbeans, Pakistanis, Koreans, and even Chinese. They do everything they can do to form their own communities, and do everything they can do not to mix with the indigenous population. Of course, this isn't totally possible for many reasons, none the less they do their best. This is multiculturalism and has nothing to do with integration.

Your prejudices and bigotry are not an argument.

Sorry if the truth upsets the more politically correct amongst you, but to be honest I don't really care.

Your prejudices and bigotry are also not the truth.

STOP PRESS STOP PRESS. Have a read of this, and then tell me how well everyone is getting on, and how well multiculturalism works in Markham.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/10/17/ma ... l-concerns

Please quote the relevant text and explain how it supports your argument.

-------------

I see One Degree is attempting to shift the goalposts to all of Canada, instead of focusing on Toronto, which is the actual discussion.

[One Degree]

I see One Degree is attempting to shift the goalposts to all of Canada, instead of focusing on Toronto, which is the actual discussion.

Really? I thought this was the conversation...

DO LIBERALS BELIEVE IN MULTICULTURALISM OR INTEGRATION?

[Know It All]

It is not a haven for white people.



Your prejudices and bigotry are not an argument.



Your prejudices and bigotry are also not the truth.



Please quote the relevant text and explain how it supports your argument.

-------------

I see One Degree is attempting to shift the goalposts to all of Canada, instead of focusing on Toronto, which is the actual discussion.

Yep, as I have always said, liberals love name calling. The thread you refer to is the cold truth, albeit the average liberal won't face up to it. People coming in mass from other countries indefinitely do it in order they can have a better life style. Whilst the occasional wealthy immigrant may want to emigrate, it's quite unusual. This almost certainly means that the mass immigrant can offer little or nothing to the country they move to. Of course, some peoples conscience is relieved by the fact they think they are helping the world's poor.

The link I sent in my last post proves that multiculturalism is very different to integration. Now, ask a man or woman in their 50s/60s who have lived in Markham all their lives if they think the change in demographics is a good thing. I bet I know the answer !!

[Pants-of-dog]

Yep, as I have always said, liberals love name calling.

Pointing out your prejudice and bigotry is not name calling.

The thread you refer to is the cold truth, albeit the average liberal won't face up to it.

The truth can be found through evidence and logic. If you have those, it does not matter what liberals believe

People coming in mass from other countries indefinitely do it in order they can have a better life style. Whilst the occasional wealthy immigrant may want to emigrate, it's quite unusual. This almost certainly means that the mass immigrant can offer little or nothing to the country they move to.

Yes and no. Immigration occurs because of different levels of economic growth, so people are coming for a better lifestyle, but that doesn't mean that all immigrants are poor and uneducated and useless.

It takes a certain amount of initiative to emigrate, and most people with initiative are not poor and uneducated and useless.

Also, many countries have rigourous immigration protocols, which makes it very hard for poor and uneducated and useless people to immigrate.

Of course, some peoples conscience is relieved by the fact they think they are helping the world's poor.

Undoubtedly, but I doubt they have much influence on immigration policy.

The link I sent in my last post proves that multiculturalism is very different to integration.

Yes, the two policies are different.

You still have not shown how this article supports your claim that multiculturalism has failed in Markham.

Now, ask a man or woman in their 50s/60s who have lived in Markham all their lives if they think the change in demographics is a good thing. I bet I know the answer !!

Maybe. You would probably be wrong about their opinion. But even if you were right, how does the opinion of a small segment of the population prove anything?

[Know It All]

In the US, these groups are so integrated that nobody bothers mentioning their differences.

Sorry, that may be what you like to think, but it's just not true.

[Know It All]

[quote="

Maybe. You would probably be wrong about their opinion. But even if you were right, how does the opinion of a small segment of the population prove anything?[/quote]

Well, I am pretty damn certain that the average middle aged local who has lived in Markham all their life definitely won't see mass immigration as a positive aspect. In fact, I'm pretty sure proper Canadians of any age who live in such an area won't like it much either. Unless of course they are VERY different to the English.

In my experience liberals in general are very divorced from reality. I know this because my son is one. He thinks most people in the UK are in favour of mass immigration, he believes that deciding not to work and claim benefits should be a lifestyle choice, he is in favour of high taxation, he has convinced himself that prison should ONLY be for rehabilitation purposes, and loves political correctness. All of the above in the UK is actually believed by very small minority, as it is I am sure in Canada.

We tribal animals by nature. As much as the political elite may want us to believe that the world is a global village, it just isn't. Why should the inhabitants of any country who have worked hard for hundreds of years to develop an advanced and civilised nation be infested by people of other cultures who just want to cash in on others hard work and enterprise.

[One Degree]

Sorry, that may be what you like to think, but it's just not true.

What makes you think so? I have lived in the US for 69 years and other than Polish jokes that were common many years ago, I have never heard anyone slander a person because of their European nationality. The Polish jokes were not meant as slander either. I don't claim to speak for the whole US but I grew up in a coal mining area, which meant a lot of European immigrants.
I simply do not recall there being any national tensions.

[Pants-of-dog]

Well, I am pretty damn certain that the average middle aged local who has lived in Markham all their life definitely won't see mass immigration as a positive aspect. In fact, I'm pretty sure proper Canadians of any age who live in such an area won't like it much either. Unless of course they are VERY different to the English.

I still fail to see what any of this has to do wih whether or not multiculturalism is successful. This is simply your opinion about the opinions of others.

Unless you are arguing that the metric for success is the opinion of old white people.

In my experience liberals in general are very divorced from reality. I know this because my son is one. He thinks most people in the UK are in favour of mass immigration, he believes that deciding not to work and claim benefits should be a lifestyle choice, he is in favour of high taxation, he has convinced himself that prison should ONLY be for rehabilitation purposes, and loves political correctness. All of the above in the UK is actually believed by very small minority, as it is I am sure in Canada.

Again, I find it difficult to care about what liberals believe, preferring to discuss truth that is discovered by using evidence and logic.

We tribal animals by nature. As much as the political elite may want us to believe that the world is a global village, it just isn't. Why should the inhabitants of any country who have worked hard for hundreds of years to develop an advanced and civilised nation be infested by people of other cultures who just want to cash in on others hard work and enterprise.

Yes, we are still dealings with all the problems associated with the British Empire, so I understand why you would complain about foreign interlopers who contribute nothing and export the wealth of our nations.

But it does not matter what the liberals believe or the political elite or whoever you want to blame for the fact that you feel victimised by immigration.

Ethnic diversity is a function of immigration. Immigration is a function of economic inequality between countries. This economic inequality is a result of many factors including capitalism, imperialism, colonialism, geography, and environment.

[Truth To Power]

@Truth To Power
I am really confused by your posts. You seem to really want to avoid the idea that people live in community enclaves based upon ethnicity.

Well, for various reasons, people of a given sort tend to congregate in areas where similar people can be found. In the 60s, it was hippies in San Francisco's Haight-Ashbury district. In the 80s, it was gays in Vancouver's West End. The Amish and Mennonites have their enclaves, which are quite isolated from the general population. There are lots of examples, ethnic, cultural, religious, and otherwise.

This is not contrary to being multicultural. It could be used to show a lack of integration, which of course is the question in the OP.

People with similar characteristics and values tending to congregate is not lack of integration.

Personally, I have no objections to either community enclaves or fully integrated communities. Different strokes for different folks. I am just curious as to your reticence. Apologies if I was offensive.

I live in Vancouver. In most areas there is broad ethnic mixing, although you can find areas where it is noticeably uneven. South Vancouver and Surrey have a lot of South Asians. North Vancouver has a lot of Iranians. Richmond is heavily Chinese. Aboriginals can often be found in the Downtown East Side (the poorest urban neighborhood in Canada). You can find a lot of Koreans in Coquitlam and Langley. But in no case do these groups constitute a majority in those areas. It also changes over time. There used to be Japantown and Little Manila areas, but today the Japanese and Filipinos can be found anywhere. There are neighborhoods where you can find a concentration of restaurants and grocery stores catering to a given ethnic group, but the actual residents of the area are usually pretty thoroughly mixed. Vancouver is very multicultural -- more than Toronto -- and it works fine. Singapore is another example of a multicultural city that works.