Do Liberals believe in Multiculturalism or Integration? - Page 7 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14778516
Know It All wrote:1st world countries taking in refugees from 3rd world countries and Islamic countries are potty. It's a recipe for disaster. The vast majority are ungrateful savages, and a drain on resources. They should be homed in similar countries to where they came from. In the UK our prisons are full of immigrants, and the NHS can't cope. Schools are crammed and the infrastructure is collapsing, however we still have stupid liberals marching up the road carrying banners reading "let them in". Absolute bloody madness !!

Well, your prisons are full, but have you looked at the impact that increasing sentences has had? Are you incarcerating people who would be better off at home and on the job with an ankle bracelet? When was the last time you built a couple of new ones? Is your health care system able to cope with people with mental health issues, or are cutbacks forcing them to be jailed instead of treated?

Your prison have had problems since Thatcher started privatising them, and the net effect is eerily similar to the US's.

School over crowding is the same issue. Sometimes you need to build more. Sometimes an area ages, fewer kids live in a parish, and you need less. Portable classrooms aren't ideal, but they can solve the problem. Funny, though. You'd think the declining birth rate in the post baby boomers era would have been enough.

Heath care needs a cash infusion. Tax the uber wealthy. They're getting away with blue murder.

Every country's has a duty to protect its people from dangerous people. Vet your incomers. We aren't having problems we can't solve, and neither are Americans.


@Pants-of-dog
I didn't mean to suggest Canada's perfect, just that we've always had a history of supporting immigrants and refugees, part of how we succeed as a multicultural society
#14778564
AFAIK wrote:Reading this thread reminded me of this article;

British public wrong about nearly everything, survey shows

The research, carried out by Ipsos Mori from a phone survey of 1,015 people aged 16 to 75, lists ten misconceptions held by the British public. Among the biggest misconceptions are:

- Benefit fraud: the public think that £24 of every £100 of benefits is fraudulently claimed. Official estimates are that just 70 pence in every £100 is fraudulent - so the public conception is out by a factor of 34.

- Immigration: some 31 per cent of the population is thought to consist of recent immigrants, when the figure is actually 13 per cent. Even including illegal immigrants, the figure is only about 15 per cent. On the issue of ethnicity, black and Asian people are thought to make up 30 per cent of the population, when the figure is closer to 11 per cent.

- Crime: some 58 per cent of people do not believe crime is falling, when the Crime Survey for England and Wales shows that incidents of crime were 19 per cent lower in 2012 than in 2006/07 and 53 per cent lower than in 1995. Some 51 per cent think violent crime is rising, when it has fallen from almost 2.5 million incidents in 2006/07 to under 2 million in 2012.

- Teen pregnancy is thought to be 25 times higher than the official estimates: 15 per cent of of girls under 16 are thought to become pregnant every year, when official figures say the amount is closer to 0.6 per cent.

Among the other surprising figures are that 26 per cent of people think foreign aid is in the top three items the Government spends money on (it actually makes up just 1.1 per cent of expenditure), and that 29 per cent of people think more is spent on Jobseekers' Allowance than pensions.

In fact we spend 15 times more on pensions - £4.9 billion on JSA vs £74.2 billion on pensions.


If you are considering this thread, the you must be thinking of the bolded one above.

This will be a countrywide statistic, and therefore includes diffuse populations. It's notable that immigrants and migrants, especially recent ones, tend to form 'enclaves' (to use Noemon's term from this thread), and this is encouraged by the invention of 'multiculturalism' as opposed to integration. These will be mostly in urban centres where it is likely that most of the polling would have been done.
I would say that the concentration of groups with an alternative culture has a multiplying effect on the significance of smallish numbers. Even more so over time when those groups are more fecund.

So, here we have an example of how statistics can be used to obscure significance. It's also an example of the odd notion that ordinary people (ie, not statisticians) are sort of expected to have an intuitive grasp of large-scale statistics.
User avatar
By Sampson Simpson
#14778594
Know It All wrote:Liberals live in a different world to the vast majority of us. For some strange reason they believe multiculturalism is a positive concept, and the country has been made all the richer for it. Of course, what the rest of us see is an increase in ghettos and segregated communities. OK, let in limited amounts of people from other cultures and they will either integrate or become recluses. Let in uncontrolled amounts of them and they develop their own communities, and generally in already deprived areas. Human beings are by nature pack animals, and we don't like or appreciate other packs of human beings who behave differently. Liberals kid themselves that we have evolved beyond this stage and the world is nothing more than a global village.

I can't really answer the question in the thread title because it's pretty unanswerable. What I would say is that liberals love the concept of multiculturalism and genuinely kid themselves that it works.


This is so ridiculous. What world do liberals live in? The real world. One where there are cultures from all over the world. Cities where there are people from from all over the world living there. All different races, religions, nationalities, etc. We don't cower and hide in our little white christian rural bubble surrounded by only like minded people.

In the real world, like nearly any city, there are neighborhoods where there are lots of people from the same country living together. They are hardly recluses. They have a thriving community. If that's how they want to live their life, so be it. Some immigrants may integrate more with American culture and move away from the culture of their homeland, or have a mix of the two. So be it. What's so wrong with that? It's their life

Recluses is more like the small town people that are hidden from anybody different from them, any other culture, race, and religion, grasping their guns thinking these bad different people are coming to get them. No wonder why they are often woefully ignorant of what goes on around their own country and the world

Know It All wrote:This is all quite upsetting. I have never been to Canada, but I always pictured it as being a haven for white people, although I was aware their is a large French community (shame really).

Now, as I said, I haven't been to Canada, Toronto, or indeed Markham, so if you are correct in what you are saying, Canada must be totally 100% different to the UK. Our nice areas tend to be almost solely white, mainly because white people are more likely to be law abiding and hard working. Poorer areas are where you are more likely to find the ethnic minorities, mainly because they feel more at home in poverty, and prefer a culture based on crime. If you take a City like London for example, there are areas heavily occupied by Afro Caribbeans, Pakistanis, Koreans, and even Chinese. They do everything they can do to form their own communities, and do everything they can do not to mix with the indigenous population. Of course, this isn't totally possible for many reasons, none the less they do their best. This is multiculturalism and has nothing to do with integration.

Sorry if the truth upsets the more politically correct amongst you, but to be honest I don't really care.

STOP PRESS STOP PRESS. Have a read of this, and then tell me how well everyone is getting on, and how well multiculturalism works in Markham.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/10/17/ma ... l-concerns



OH wait, never mind, an admitted racist, that would explain the previous post
User avatar
By One Degree
#14778599
Sampson Simpson wrote:This is so ridiculous. What world do liberals live in? The real world. One where there are cultures from all over the world. Cities where there are people from from all over the world living there. All different races, religions, nationalities, etc. We don't cower and hide in our little white christian rural bubble surrounded by only like minded people.

In the real world, like nearly any city, there are neighborhoods where there are lots of people from the same country living together. They are hardly recluses. They have a thriving community. If that's how they want to live their life, so be it. Some immigrants may integrate more with American culture and move away from the culture of their homeland, or have a mix of the two. So be it. What's so wrong with that? It's their life

Recluses is more like the small town people that are hidden from anybody different from them, any other culture, race, and religion, grasping their guns thinking these bad different people are coming to get them. No wonder why they are often woefully ignorant of what goes on around their own country and the world[/b]




OH wait, never mind, an admitted racist, that would explain the previous post


So you are a typical liberal who is accepting of all cultures except those that disagree with you in your own country. How open minded of you. :lol: Your bigoted view of conservatives is a testament to your ignorance. You obviously have made no attempt to understand their cultural views, but pride yourself on understanding the cultural views of minorities. Conservatives are just as educated and knowledgeable as Liberals. They simply have different priorities that you have not bothered to understand and choose to dehumanize them with insults instead of listening.
User avatar
By Sampson Simpson
#14778616
One Degree wrote:So you are a typical liberal who is accepting of all cultures except those that disagree with you in your own country. How open minded of you. :lol: Your bigoted view of conservatives is a testament to your ignorance. You obviously have made no attempt to understand their cultural views, but pride yourself on understanding the cultural views of minorities. Conservatives are just as educated and knowledgeable as Liberals. They simply have different priorities that you have not bothered to understand and choose to dehumanize them with insults instead of listening.


This is so the typical conservative response. Just deflection, no substance. Make up a completely ridiculous position the other person never took or even hinted at, then argue that because you don't actually have a factual, intelligent response to their post.

My mom live in rural America, her entire side of the family, I go there often. . How do I not know their culture? What does that have to do with anything I said? Nothing, just defecting. I'm not ignorant about conservatives. I could care less about their culture, except the fact they try to tell others how they should live their lives. People they never meet or know anything about

Point out what is wrong about what I said? Conservatives tend to live in their small towns, surrounded by all like minded people, no racial or cultural diversity. And they claim they are the "real americans" and that liberals live in a fantasy world. Which one is more fantasy, the people that actually live with all races and nationalities, or those that don't? Those that are continually exposed to different views, or those surrounded by all other white, christian conservatives?

And if conservatives want to complain and whine about negatives stereotypes about them, how about being honest for once? Make a factual argument. Don't deflect and make up bs arguments nobody ever made. I rarely ever see this. I think because they are completely wrong most of the time so they can't actually argue facts
User avatar
By One Degree
#14778629
Sampson Simpson wrote:This is so the typical conservative response. Just deflection, no substance. Make up a completely ridiculous position the other person never took or even hinted at, then argue that because you don't actually have a factual, intelligent response to their post.

My mom live in rural America, her entire side of the family, I go there often. . How do I not know their culture? What does that have to do with anything I said? Nothing, just defecting. I'm not ignorant about conservatives. I could care less about their culture, except the fact they try to tell others how they should live their lives. People they never meet or know anything about

Point out what is wrong about what I said? Conservatives tend to live in their small towns, surrounded by all like minded people, no racial or cultural diversity. And they claim they are the "real americans" and that liberals live in a fantasy world. Which one is more fantasy, the people that actually live with all races and nationalities, or those that don't? Those that are continually exposed to different views, or those surrounded by all other white, christian conservatives?

And if conservatives want to complain and whine about negatives stereotypes about them, how about being honest for once? Make a factual argument. Don't deflect and make up bs arguments nobody ever made. I rarely ever see this. I think because they are completely wrong most of the time so they can't actually argue facts


People tend to dislike in others what they fail to see in themselves. I have read three of your posts and you have not offered a single argument yet. You simply whine about conservatives whining. You even say you understand conservatives and then go on to describe them as all white Christians living in rural areas. :lol:
I am considered white, but my DNA says I am a mongrel. I am not Christian and I do not live in a rural area. I am also educated. How come I don't fit your stereotype? Maybe you do not know who Conservatives are? Maybe you are regurgitating party lines without having made any real attempt to understand for yourself. Speaking of stereotype: Small town white person moves to big city and embraces the poor minorities. :lol:
How can you hate white Christians, but love brown Muslims and Black Christians? Have you stopped to consider how ridiculous that is?

Edit: Also I am not a Conservative, but I currently support some of Trump's agenda. How does that make me a typical conservative? I find the 'typical' part much more of an insult than the 'conservative' part. :D
#14778637
Well, you have never criticised Trump or any of his policies and always defend them. Much like you always support conservative positions and never criticise them.

On topic, people who actually live around immigrants (i.e. people in bigger cities) will have a more knowledgeable viewpoint on immigration and multiculturalism.
#14778649
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, they do not. Your feelings are not a logical rebuttal to facts, evidence, or logic.



Historically, the forced movement of people has been about colour. The transatlantic slave trade is one example, and so ois the trail of tears.



Please provide evidence for this claim, thank you.



Ignoring your obvious lack of knowledge about indigenous struggles in the Americas, I will simply point out that you seem to agree that multiculturalism has worked in the UK.



Please provide evidence for the claim that multiculturalism does not work. No, your opinion does not count.


I did prove that multiculturalism does not work in the UK. The majority of immigrants huddle together in their own communities, which in turn they make into ghettos. I have already told you this, and it is a true indicator it doesn't work. If your not happy with that as proof, I am afraid there is little more I can do to convince you.

I would also point out that opinions do indeed count, and can be logical. So many things in life can not proved by statistics and figures. One thing we can agree on though, is logic should take priority of emotion. For this reason I am adamantly against the UK taking in refugees.
Last edited by Know It All on 21 Feb 2017 18:01, edited 1 time in total.
#14778651
"Pants-of-dog"]Well, you have never criticised Trump or any of his policies and always defend them. Much like you always support conservative positions and never criticise them.

You are in to making up stuff now and using terms like 'never' and 'always'? :lol:
I support Trump as an anti establishment figure. I have posted often about how people need to support him to prevent the conservatives from worse excesses.

On topic, people who actually live around immigrants (i.e. people in bigger cities) will have a more knowledgeable viewpoint on immigration and multiculturalism.

Thank you or do you not consider a metro area of two million a bigger city? Stupid people are found everywhere, but it is nice to see you admitting more of your elitism.

I was actually guilty in my previous posts of reverting back to my teacher instincts. I thought I saw intelligence in @Sampson Simpson, but he was not saying anything intelligent. I decided to encourage him to do so. :D I prefer to be the only one posting nonsense. I don't like competition. :D
User avatar
By Sampson Simpson
#14778656
One Degree wrote:People tend to dislike in others what they fail to see in themselves. I have read three of your posts and you have not offered a single argument yet. You simply whine about conservatives whining. You even say you understand conservatives and then go on to describe them as all white Christians living in rural areas. :lol:
I am considered white, but my DNA says I am a mongrel. I am not Christian and I do not live in a rural area. I am also educated. How come I don't fit your stereotype? Maybe you do not know who Conservatives are? Maybe you are regurgitating party lines without having made any real attempt to understand for yourself. Speaking of stereotype: Small town white person moves to big city and embraces the poor minorities. :lol:
How can you hate white Christians, but love brown Muslims and Black Christians? Have you stopped to consider how ridiculous that is?

Edit: Also I am not a Conservative, but I currently support some of Trump's agenda. How does that make me a typical conservative? I find the 'typical' part much more of an insult than the 'conservative' part. :D


And yet another deflection that is not on topic. Guess it doesn't matter what forum you go to, the conservatives always do the same thing. Not even original

"all you do is whine", "butthurt liberal" "want a tissue" "Trump won get over it", insert the stupid conservative blogger deflection. Nothing original. NO argument, just deflection.

You may not be a conservative, but one thing that is clear from your lack of actually discussing the topic, its you are wrong . Constant deflection, whether it be from liberal or conservative, is an instant sign of losing the discussion

I made several points that you ignored. Here, I'll repeat a main one related to the topic, why does it have to be one or the other? THis is such simplistic black and white mentality. If people come here and want to stay in their communities, continue to follow their traditions, so be it, they are free to do so in this country. If they want to become more "american" than that is their choice. That's what America is, what it has always been. No matter what some white people who hate the fact they can't push everybody around and force them to live by their morals anymore has to say about it. Immigration built this country. Most people in this country live in cities or urban areas surrounded by people from all over the world, not small, largely only white towns.
User avatar
By One Degree
#14778661
"Sampson Simpson"]And yet another deflection that is not on topic. Guess it doesn't matter what forum you go to, the conservatives always do the same thing. Not even original

What topic are you referring to? I took exception to your post because it was meaningless name calling.

"all you do is whine", "butthurt liberal" "want a tissue" "Trump won get over it", insert the stupid conservative blogger deflection. Nothing original. NO argument, just deflection.

See, more meaningless name calling pretending to have a point but never saying what it is. :?: This is just babble.

You may not be a conservative, but one thing that is clear from your lack of actually discussing the topic, its you are wrong . Constant deflection, whether it be from liberal or conservative, is an instant sign of losing the discussion

You have not presented a point for discussion.
I made several points that you ignored. Here, I'll repeat a main one related to the topic, why does it have to be one or the other?

One or the other what? I have no idea what you are trying to say.
THis is such simplistic black and white mentality.

Again, you fail to mention what you are making reference to. You are just babbling.
If people come here and want to stay in their communities, continue to follow their traditions, so be it, they are free to do so in this country. If they want to become more "american" than that is their choice. That's what America is, what it has always been.

Okay, you still have not made a point for discussion.
No matter what some white people who hate the fact they can't push everybody around and force them to live by their morals anymore has to say about it. Immigration built this country. Most people in this country live in cities or urban areas surrounded by people from all over the world, not small, largely only white towns.


More babbling about how bad white people are. You said you were going to restate your points, but I am still trying to figure out what those points are. You seem to be under the impression that all white people hate all immigrants and you don't think that is fair. Is that your point you want to discuss?
#14778667
Know It All wrote:i did prove that multiculturalism does not work in the UK. The majority of immigrants huddle together in their own communities, which in turn they make into ghettos. I have already told you this, and it is a true indicator it doesn't work. If your not happy with that as proof, I am afraid there is little more I can do to convince you.

You may think you proved MC doesn't work, but not one argument held up to scrutiny. I refer you to my last post to you, above, this page
#14778678
Stormsmith wrote:You may think you proved MC doesn't work, but not one argument held up to scrutiny. I refer you to my last post to you, above, this page


I don't think you fully understand debating on a forum. If our arguments rely entirely on proven fact, we may just as well google everything. The only real difference between an argument and a debate, is that one is an open forum, and hopefully the debate remains civilised. Supplying data to prove a point is fine, but it should never be something we rely on.

Now, the point of this thread is to prove, disprove, or just discuss multiculturalism and integration in a liberal context. It is my belief that many liberals believe the the two are closely linked, whereas the majority of people believe otherwise. Of course, without holding a mass poll amongst liberals, my belief can't be upheld
#14778690
Know It All wrote:I don't think you fully understand debating on a forum. If our arguments rely entirely on proven fact, we may just as well google everything. The only real difference between an argument and a debate, is that one is an open forum, and hopefully the debate remains civilised. Supplying data to prove a point is fine, but it should never be something we rely on.

Now, the point of this thread is to prove, disprove, or just discuss multiculturalism and integration in a liberal context. It is my belief that many liberals believe the the two are closely linked, whereas the majority of people believe otherwise. Of course, without holding a mass poll amongst liberals, my belief can't be upheld


For the record, presenting information that falsely attributed to some end or another is what you did, and is what I demonstrated as being misrepresented.

When you present an argument, it's up to others to challenge it.

I think it's you who doesn't know about debating. Reality doesnt appear to be your forte, either

If you wanted to prove what liberals believe, you could have started a thread under the topic "opinion poĺls"
#14778704
Know It All wrote:I did prove that multiculturalism does not work in the UK. The majority of immigrants huddle together in their own communities, which in turn they make into ghettos. I have already told you this, and it is a true indicator it doesn't work. If your not happy with that as proof, I am afraid there is little more I can do to convince you.


This is not evidence at all. This is your biased opinion about neighbourhoods with lots of immigrants.

Evidence is something that is independently verified, like a study or a news article. Something other than you simply repeating your beliefs.

I would also point out that opinions do indeed count, and can be logical. So many things in life can not proved by statistics and figures. One thing we can agree on though, is logic should take priority of emotion. For this reason I am adamantly against the UK taking in refugees.


Your entire argument so far has been about your emotional reaction to immigrants and nothing else.

----------------

One Degree wrote:You are in to making up stuff now and using terms like 'never' and 'always'? :lol:
I support Trump as an anti establishment figure. I have posted often about how people need to support him to prevent the conservatives from worse excesses.


No, I am not making stuff up. For a centrist who supports local communities, you seem to always support the conservative position.

Like in this thread.

Thank you or do you not consider a metro area of two million a bigger city?


Yes, I do, but I have no idea why you are thanking me.

Stupid people are found everywhere, but it is nice to see you admitting more of your elitism.


And now we get to the name calling. Do you think it is cool and smart to call me an elitist?

I was actually guilty in my previous posts of reverting back to my teacher instincts. I thought I saw intelligence in @Sampson Simpson, but he was not saying anything intelligent. I decided to encourage him to do so. :D I prefer to be the only one posting nonsense. I don't like competition. :D


Do you have anything about the actual topic to say?
#14778708
No, I am not making stuff up. For a centrist who supports local communities, you seem to always support the conservative position.

Like in this thread.

You ignored my comment that you posted. Please show where I support the conservative position, when I actually encourage support of Trump to offset the conservative position. I am against banning abortion and I am against destroying Obamacare as just two examples. I also find it difficult to understand why you think I should not hold some conservative views? I hold my own views and some of them are considered conservative or liberal by others, but have no meaning for me. I don't care what group you try to put me in, because I won't fit.

Yes, I do, but I have no idea why you are thanking me.

I live in a metro area of two million and you said we know more about other cultures than our rural cousins.


And now we get to the name calling. Do you think it is cool and smart to call me an elitist?

You said people who live in cities know more about other cultures than those who don't. This is elitist thinking. You are placing an entire group above another group. Believing city people are smarter than rural people is just as bad as saying whites are smarter than blacks.



Do you have anything about the actual topic to say?

Yes, do you believe in integration or Multiculturalism?
#14778716
One Degree wrote:You said people who live in cities know more about other cultures than those who don't. This is elitist thinking. You are placing an entire group above another group. Believing city people are smarter than rural people is just as bad as saying whites are smarter than blacks.


Wow. You are really stretching it in order to think insulting things about me.

Are you really arguing my point that people who have more experience with something know more about it? The inverse is to believe that experience has no effect on the amount of knowledge peope have about a subject such as immigration. Is that what you believe?

Yes, do you believe in integration or Multiculturalism?


I believe that multiculturalist policies can be helpful in terms of economically integrating immigrants.

What about you? I assume you are actually anti-immigration.
#14778722
"Pants-of-dog"]Wow. You are really stretching it in order to think insulting things about me.

Are you really arguing my point that people who have more experience with something know more about it? The inverse is to believe that experience has no effect on the amount of knowledge peope have about a subject such as immigration. Is that what you believe?

I am pointing out that you are wrong. Living in close proximity to immigrants is just as likely to make you anti immigrant as pro immigrant. People also move from city to country and vice versa all the time. People from both cities and the country went to universities and have experiences with others. Your opinion is elitist because it is based upon an unsubstantiated view. You even insinuated I was not from a metro area because I disagreed with you.



I believe that multiculturalist policies can be helpful in terms of economically integrating immigrants.

What about you? I assume you are actually anti-immigration.

I support a net zero immigration policy due to over population concerns. Immigration is beneficial but the numbers need to be strictly controlled. Two of my daughter in laws are not US citizens, so I do not take the current situation lightly. One of them was to be in the US already with my new grand daughter, but the US embassy has so far refused to issue the papers. I only insert this personal note because you have on occasion doubted my sincerity.
#14778723
Pants-of-dog wrote:....I believe that multiculturalist policies can be helpful in terms of economically integrating immigrants...


Ah, interesting. It seems you are not for multiculturalism as an ongoing state of affairs, just as a means to an end (ie integration).

A problem may occur when people decide that they don't want to integrate after all and that their best interests are served by maintaining a degree of separation.
#14778725
One Degree wrote:I am pointing out that you are wrong. Living in close proximity to immigrants is just as likely to make you anti immigrant as pro immigrant. ....


I doubt it. Please provide evidence for this claim.

I support a net zero immigration policy due to over population concerns. Immigration is beneficial but the numbers need to be strictly controlled.


Stopping immigration does nothing for global population.

Which do you think works better? Integration or multiculturalism? Do you see them as being mutually exclusive?
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